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Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)

46. It is comparable, actually

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 01:03 AM

Jul 2012

Certainly not in severity, by any means. There's no argument that in terms of damage done, FGM is worse.

However in both instances, a human being is being cut up against their consent in an effort by their parents to force the child's genitals to conform with the aesthetic / religious standards of the moment.

It's the removal of bodily autonomy that is the issue. It's taking a child, and carving them up into some weird standard held by their parents. That's not right, and it doesn't matter who it's being done to or why.

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Angela Merkel intervenes over court ban on circumcision of young boys (in Germany) [View all] alp227 Jul 2012 OP

Child abuse in the name of religious freedom a2liberal Jul 2012 #1

For alot of people it's not religion as to why they do this LynneSin Jul 2012 #6

There's a huge difference between cutting off a useless flap of sensitive, nerve-filled skin Trillo Jul 2012 #2

Well, cutting off hands... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2012 #27

It is not useless. xfundy Jul 2012 #134

what? backwoodsbob Jul 2012 #146

Pile-driver men have nothing to do with a skin flap. boppers Jul 2012 #148

Cosmetic surgery on a nonconsenting child... Scootaloo Jul 2012 #3

cosmetic surgery... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2012 #28

Is there a limit to "religious freedom" in Germany? Renew Deal Jul 2012 #4

FGM is COMPLETELY different kurtzapril4 Jul 2012 #18

What about human sacrifice? Renew Deal Jul 2012 #19

Do some research on kurtzapril4 Jul 2012 #21

Besides marginalizing circumcision.... Renew Deal Jul 2012 #22

You keep changing the subject. kurtzapril4 Jul 2012 #32

The subject is religious freedom. Renew Deal Jul 2012 #35

Its not that different. Minors being genitally modified without consent. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #49

It is comparable, actually Scootaloo Jul 2012 #46

It is not comparable dflprincess Jul 2012 #107

We don'thave nearly enough information to decide that riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #110

According to WHO the "ritual nicking of the clitoral hood" is very rare dflprincess Jul 2012 #119

I'm not going to argue the moral gradations of FGM severity on this thread riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #121

Along with hair cuts, ear piercings, wart removals, etc. boppers Jul 2012 #149

Explained downthread. Scootaloo Jul 2012 #175

"whole societies", you say? boppers Jul 2012 #182

Already covered it Scootaloo Jul 2012 #183

Yeah, it's unethical, and should be illegal, by I see a possible flaw in your hypothesis... boppers Jul 2012 #192

Did you read my post? Scootaloo Jul 2012 #174

yes, and both are barbaric. nt awoke_in_2003 Jul 2012 #30

It's true. FGM involves removing a portion of the genitals for bizarre religious reasons 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #73

FGM is more the result of cultural or societal norms rather than religious dflprincess Jul 2012 #106

Circumcision is done here mainly for health reasons. xtraxritical Jul 2012 #5

Exactly. It's not an issue of religion. It's an issue of lowering the chances of my kids getting an E-Z-B Jul 2012 #8

Do you live in Burkina Faso? Scootaloo Jul 2012 #10

You really gotta wonder reorg Jul 2012 #24

Little bit TMI there, dude n/t Scootaloo Jul 2012 #45

Boy, you are droll. xtraxritical Jul 2012 #25

I'm also correct Scootaloo Jul 2012 #44

You sure have a lot of time to waste on snark. May I suggest a hobby? Bonobo Jul 2012 #47

That's the dumbest argument I've seen presented in defense of child abuse, ever. Scootaloo Jul 2012 #52

You just ignored the brutal reality for most of the world (again) Bonobo Jul 2012 #63

Oh yes, this argument... Scootaloo Jul 2012 #64

Your whole snark-ument was that it is easy to wash. Bonobo Jul 2012 #65

You're not paying attention Scootaloo Jul 2012 #70

Okay, let me try again. Bonobo Jul 2012 #100

Keep trying Scootaloo Jul 2012 #177

Blisteringly patronizing response, always popular in a circumcision thread. boppers Jul 2012 #150

"Useless" ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jul 2012 #34

Hypothetically, if it could be shown that hacking away at various parts of the female 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #74

Well you don't know any better Boxcar Willie Jul 2012 #75

Thank you, Angela Merkel. JDPriestly Jul 2012 #7

"no compelling reason to prohibit people from doing it"???? alp227 Jul 2012 #9

Parents are the boss when it comes to their kids. End of story. harun Jul 2012 #12

Upbringing yes, grievous bodily modifications no. alp227 Jul 2012 #13

My parents had that philosophy Scootaloo Jul 2012 #14

I hear you Sootaloo Skittles Jul 2012 #152

OK then, lets start hacking off their ears because..."parents are the boss when it comes to their Purveyor Jul 2012 #15

People like you give Liberals a bad name. harun Jul 2012 #43

Yes, on some issues that is the case and its not arrogant or anti-liberty riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #55

No, slicing up your kids for aesthetic reasons is intrusive and anti-liberty Scootaloo Jul 2012 #56

Maybe we should wait until they are 18 before cutting their umbilical cord, harun Jul 2012 #69

A haircut is equal to carving away living tissue on a boy's penis Scootaloo Jul 2012 #71

So, if foreskins fell off, say, at three months, would that be a problem? eom boppers Jul 2012 #151

We all have beliefs harun Jul 2012 #160

wrong reorg Jul 2012 #16

No, they're not. Especially when it comes to harmful practices. nt riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #42

please explain how you believe this is "reminiscent of the Third Reich" reorg Jul 2012 #17

Last I heard kurtzapril4 Jul 2012 #20

irrelevant reorg Jul 2012 #23

I think your hasty generalisation of "irrelevent" is not relevent. xtraxritical Jul 2012 #26

I think you didn't read my post reorg Jul 2012 #29

"STD are of no concern to small children. " boppers Jul 2012 #154

And then the grown up can decide whether to get the procedure done themselves riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #168

In what society do people not have *any* sexual activity before becoming a legal adult? boppers Jul 2012 #179

why are you against masturbation? reorg Jul 2012 #186

Use condoms. Seems to be a pretty standard line to give any teen, girls and boys. nt riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #190

Priests seem to oppose it. boppers Jul 2012 #197

Oh, was there a study done on the percentage of rapes by Catholic priests with and without condoms? riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #200

Sorry, but long-term studies trumps your anecdotal evidence E-Z-B Jul 2012 #36

sorry, there are no studies reorg Jul 2012 #37

"I never had any STD because I know how to protect myself." boppers Jul 2012 #153

That and related "research" is really flawed unc70 Jul 2012 #66

Of course there's reason to prohibit it. It has killed children. It permanently disfigures them. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #41

Good for her. harun Jul 2012 #11

Free the foreskins! Canuckistanian Jul 2012 #31

I am! kurtzapril4 Jul 2012 #33

Government knows best! AJTheMan Jul 2012 #38

How about female genital circumcision? Families still know best? riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #39

If that's what they want to do, then that is their right to do it. We don't need a big brother gov't AJTheMan Jul 2012 #48

Okay, so please speak up on the next "38 lb 12 year old found in dog cage" story riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #51

Thanks for the welcome. AJTheMan Jul 2012 #53

Noted that you have no answers. nt riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #57

Post removed Post removed Jul 2012 #58

Who let the Libertararians onto DU? Scootaloo Jul 2012 #59

This is about parents making decisions for minor children, not adult women riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #60

You authoritarinan "government knows best" types disgust me. AJTheMan Jul 2012 #61

Bye! Thank gawd. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #62

I agree with you and according to a poll taken here awhle back so do 80% of DU members Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #68

Here come all the posters who suddenly care about YOUR kids...nt Bonobo Jul 2012 #40

Right. Because parents should be allowed to do anything they like to their kids. Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #167

Idiot. Fearless Jul 2012 #50

Good for her. Behind the Aegis Jul 2012 #54

I'm glad I was circumcised and I am glad this right is being defended Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #67

People's notions of "rights" and "staying out of a families business" seem to change radically 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #76

right off hand I would say that removing a clitoris is considerably more invasive than removing a Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #78

I would say that removing a hand is worse than removing a finger 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #82

there are lots of things parents decide for their children Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #83

Generally they aren't allowed to make decisions that leave permanent scars 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #85

my parents did many things that I wish they hadn't done. But having me circumcised is not one that Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #87

I guess I really need to ask: why are you so opposed to getting consent first 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #92

describing male circumcision as disfiguring or as mutilation is disingenuous to the extreme Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #93

Def: 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #95

I never, never, never indicated that I'm opposed to asking someone's consent Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #96

You have supported childhood MGM 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #98

as with any elective medical procedure I believe that parental consent should always be required Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #102

But parents can and often are, blinded by tradition and their consent is actually damaging riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #104

no, I don't think parents should be able to make decision in regards to things like child marriage, Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #108

Genital cutting is not a blood test or nursery school selection. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #112

they don't cut the genitals - just the foreskin Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #116

Gosh, they don't actually cut the genitals on girls, its just the foreskin. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #117

on girls they cut off the clitoris - that's totally different - I'm against it Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #122

Nope. You're wrong. FGM isnt cutting off the clitoris. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #123

as I understand it - the procedure with girls is meant to remove the ability to enjoy genital Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #125

Can you point me to a study that pinpoints the exquisiteness of sex riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #126

I don't think there is anything wrong with male circumcision - but it's a family matter none of my Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #127

What you personally, anecdotally think, doesn't matter. You're aligning with cultural relativism riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #128

Perhaps you should advise the Obama campaign to promise a ban on male circumcision? Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #129

Won't be the first time. I also support legal banning of burqas. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #131

just how invasive of an authoritarian state will people be willing to accept? Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #135

If it is cultural relativism to believe that somethings are wrong and somethings are not particularly Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #130

The overwhelming majority of Americans used to also believe slavery was okay riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #132

sorry, but I just don't see the moral equivalency between slavery and male circumcision Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #133

are you saying that Jews who have their children circumcised should be forcibly stopped and if they Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #136

Yes, just like we do with those who practice FGM. Removing body parts should be an riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #162

To remove the clitoris would require major surgery. boppers Jul 2012 #156

The foreskin isn't part of the genitals now? 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #139

I work in an NICU I have seen the procedure countless times - it really is no big deal Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #141

You said they don't cut the genitals, just the foreskin 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #166

Explain how your argument in favor of MGM could not also be used in 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #137

describing male circumcision as MGM is cynical and disingenuous and crazy talk Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #140

seems like you're conveniently dodging the question reorg Jul 2012 #144

the only authoritarians here are those who are demanding that the state micromanages personal family Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #145

you should try and find out what authoritarian means reorg Jul 2012 #147

let me ask you ..would you suggest that Jews who have their children circumcised should be forcibly Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #142

Yes, just like we do with those who practice FGM. Removing body parts should be an riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #161

Body deformations can be removed without penalty of law. boppers Jul 2012 #155

You may want to look up the meaning of "deformation" 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #165

Yeah, I know what it means. boppers Jul 2012 #181

have you ever been near a foreskin reorg Jul 2012 #184

1. Yes. boppers Jul 2012 #196

Amazing we managed to survive at all without circumcisions 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #188

Have you been to Europe? boppers Jul 2012 #195

Nope. Apparently it's overrun with disease 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #207

A foreskin is a "body deformation"? Really?? nt riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #169

To some, yes. boppers Jul 2012 #180

To some a clitoris is a disgusting 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #189

Because I like to watch folks go to great lengths defending their personal and social body choices. boppers Jul 2012 #199

You can remake parts of the labia too 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #206

Decisions on permanent body modifications should be made by the individual when they are an adult riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #191

Foreskins can get HPV, and become cancerous. boppers Jul 2012 #198

Yes Sterling Jul 2012 #97

Who gave you the authority to declare this "insignificant"? riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #77

describing male circumcision as maiming or mutilation is cynical and disingenuous to the extreme Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #79

Nobody's supporting empowering the state to control every little private matter -THAT'S disingenuous riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #80

no I don't believe foot binding should be allowed Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #81

The old "it's ok because we've always done this and a lot of people are ok with it" argument 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #84

I don't believe in slavery, putting children in mines or treating women as second class citizens Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #86

You're arguing that it's ok because other things are worse 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #88

well finally comparing it to slavery, or female genital mutilation was not enough we are up to one Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #90

A keen observer will note that I never said any of that 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #91

It's not going to be banned in Europe either and certainly not in the U.S. Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #94

Well since we've already established that government actually DOES stick its nose into other peoples riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #99

call me old fashioned and square but I think decisions about elective medical procedures Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #101

Nope, we've already (jointly) decided, as a society, that's not going to happen (FGM, tattoos etc) riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #103

Parents make lots of decisions for their children on just about everything, Like most people I Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #105

Parents are legally prohibited from making virtually ANY decision about permanent body alterations riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #109

no I don't agree with foot binding or 10y/o marriage or FGM . I don't know anything about the Maori Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #113

Your cultural and religious relativism is showing. Noted. riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #114

well crazy mixed up me! Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #115

There you go, kicking again bud. Thanks! riderinthestorm Jul 2012 #118

Parents are part of most birth defect decisions. boppers Jul 2012 #157

Flip it around: Germany bans female genital mutilation. A male head of state intervenes and says 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #72

Honest ? Sterling Jul 2012 #89

A famous line from "Yes, Prime Minister" Turbineguy Jul 2012 #111

This circumcision ritual..... DeSwiss Jul 2012 #120

Which would imply god is flawed 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #138

It's also an assumption soundly rejected by atheistic beliefs opposed to skin flaps... boppers Jul 2012 #158

Failing to clean your ears can cause health problems 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #163

The domain name says all about their science that I need to know. eom boppers Jul 2012 #178

this site links to a discussion in the NYT reorg Jul 2012 #185

Oh, reader comments! boppers Jul 2012 #194

Attack the source to ignore the content 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #187

Mole removal is also surgery. boppers Jul 2012 #193

Would you agree that cosmetic surgery to enhance the sexual appeal of a child 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #208

I think this is the right decision DVDGuy Jul 2012 #124

Speaking as one who was affected by this procedure, and had no input xfundy Jul 2012 #143

If you are "hurting women in the process", a foreskin wouldn't fix that. boppers Jul 2012 #159

yes, that logic doesn't hold. If anything, it would seem that a foreskin would "hurt women more" not CTyankee Jul 2012 #170

Why would you think a foreskin would hurt women? reorg Jul 2012 #172

Not my idea, believe me. I read it on one of the posts. It seemed strange to me. Go back and CTyankee Jul 2012 #173

If circumcision had never been done before, and one day someone invented a brand new religion, Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #164

Bingo 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #171

The argument is "If you don't want it done to your kids, don't do it." harun Jul 2012 #201

So I guess that argument would also apply to female genital mutilation. Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #205

interesting article about this subject: Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2012 #176

aren't rituals great snooper2 Jul 2012 #202

Christianity and the Feast of the Circumcision of Christ HockeyMom Jul 2012 #203

Nose Jobs Mutiliation too? HockeyMom Jul 2012 #204

It's a celebration of an event in the life of Jesus, not of circumcision itself ButterflyBlood Jul 2012 #210

You can catch flies quicker with honey than with vinegar. Nine Jul 2012 #209

Good point HockeyMom Jul 2012 #211

Well, to clarify... Nine Jul 2012 #212