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In reply to the discussion: CU professor calls “BS” on Romney’s 13 percent tax rate claim [View all]whatever you get out of "short a", in your example $50, you put back on 31 days later to re-establish the hedge.
But there is an important difference. You don't get back the benefit being down by $50 on Short A. When you re-establish your position, you are at break-even. There is no tax-benefit associated with that trade anymore, you have already realized it.
(IV) after 31 days, re-establish the artificial hedge
$150 cash -- short a (proceeds from selling stock)
= $550 total cash
Should be $150 cash -- Long A(the only one still open).
So yes, you have $550 in total, exactly the same as if you didn't open either A position. The difference is, instead of having $50 profit in actual cash, you have $50 profit in Long A.
you physically have realized your gain of $50, but for tax purposes you have offsetting gaines and losses (long r/short a). the re-established hedge has a floating gain of $50 which you can defer until whenever you want.
You haven't actually realized your gain, your gain is effectively sitting in the Long A position. Until you close that position, you haven't realized the gain. You are still at $400 cash, with a position worth $150.
Deferring the $50 gain in Long A is no different than leaving it in Long R. Your total scenario is exactly the same, with no realized profits in your cash balance.
Thanks for the link, I'll look at it.
But, still you haven't shown the supposed benefit from doing this.
Without the hedge, you could
A - Keep the position Long R, and either make more money, or lose your profits. $400 cash + $150 position = $550 total.
B - Close the position Long R. $550 cash. Once your stock goes into cash, you have realized your profit. It makes sense to pay taxes when your cash increases, not when your position value increases.
With the hedge, you could
A - Keep the position Long A, and either make more money, or lose your profits. $400 cash + $150 position = $550 total.
B - Close the position Long A. $550 cash. Once your stock goes into cash, you have realized your profit. It makes sense to pay taxes when your cash increases, not when your position value increases.
See? It's exactly the same, except for which stock you have an open position in. I would never suggest this, because you are going to be putting your profits into a stock that you won't necessarily think is a good position, by default. The position you take on the hedge fund depends on what happens with your real fund.
All there is is increased risk, with no increased reward.
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What in the world is this man griping about? The fact that you can use capital losses to offset
dkf
Aug 2012
#1
if ALL you have is capital losses, that is fine. but realizing losses while carrying gains....
unblock
Aug 2012
#6
harvesting naturally occuring losses is different from designing artificial losses to harvest.
unblock
Aug 2012
#43
i have no proof rmoney did it, but here's the strategy, and yes people have done this:
unblock
Aug 2012
#45
i'm not suggesting that the capital gains disappear, only that they're deferred.
unblock
Aug 2012
#51
you close out the short a and then re-establish it for the same amount 31 days later.
unblock
Aug 2012
#53
there are all sorts of ways around all sorts of problems. if you're rich, at least.
unblock
Aug 2012
#57
I think you're focusing on the fact that something has to be illegal to be considered in play for el
LanternWaste
Aug 2012
#48
13% of what is the kicker. What is his effective tax rate? Show us the returns Rmoney!
riderinthestorm
Aug 2012
#4
The returns wouldn't show the stuff the professor is talking about. That's the point.
BlueStreak
Aug 2012
#7
Do you think it would be more effective if he showed his IRS cancelled checks?
riderinthestorm
Aug 2012
#8