Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Jedi Guy

(3,534 posts)
67. I'm not arguing the morality of not selling to a buyer because of their sexual orientation.
Mon Jun 4, 2018, 05:41 PM
Jun 2018

I think it's absurd that anyone cares enough to decline to serve a client because of that client's sexual orientation, perceived or otherwise. So I'm not arguing that the baker is right to decline to sell the cake to a same-sex couple. It's ass-backwards that a businessperson, who is ostensibly in the business of making money, would turn away money like that.

I can't imagine that God would say, "Okay, you're in, welcome to Hea-... hang on, you baked a cake for a gay couple's wedding? Never mind, off to Hell with you." So the faith-based reason to turn away the client is just kinda silly, and I say that as someone who was brought up in a very, very religious family. If the Almighty would have any opinion at all on the matter, it comes to me that the preference would be to do one's very best to make the couple feel special. Do unto others, and all that.

Anyway, what I'm arguing is that the design and creation of a wedding cake is art, just as much as a song, a painting, or a book. A wedding cake is more a work of art than a "good." A sheet cake from your local grocery store is a good. The only resemblances it bears to a wedding cake is that they use some of the same ingredients and that it's meant to be eaten. The same kind of skill and talent required to paint a picture is required to design and create a wedding cake, or at least a wedding cake that people are willing to drop hundreds of dollars on.

I feel like you didn't really read what I actually wrote on this part. The client owns the cake, in the sense that they can eat it, freeze it, or spill it on the floor, as they like. I'm not arguing that they don't. The design of the cake is, in the case of my wife's establishment, owned by the establishment. The client owns the cake; they do not own the art that is the cake. The establishment can use images of the cake to advertise their business, and the client cannot decline to allow such use. It's in the contract that the client(s) must sign for their event to go on.

Edited to add: And if the buyer of a purse wants to eat it, then they should damned well be able to do so. I'd consider them crazypants for doing so, but oh well.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Before complaining about conservative bias, be aware this was a 7-2 vote. brooklynite Jun 2018 #1
Really?? a kennedy Jun 2018 #2
Ginsberg & Sotomayer were the 2 votes. 7962 Jun 2018 #6
Thanks, just read that...... a kennedy Jun 2018 #8
wtf kagan? DonCoquixote Jun 2018 #80
Also, the grounds were narrow, so there is little precedent that will flow from this decision. . .nt Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #18
And when a gay couple is refused service at a lunch counter? Faygo Kid Jun 2018 #3
The case was decided narrowly on "bias" by the state commissioner. As the article states the Fred Sanders Jun 2018 #14
That would be different, I think Seeking Serenity Jun 2018 #17
That's not what the opinion is about MosheFeingold Jun 2018 #25
Or a Jewish printer being asked to christx30 Jun 2018 #34
Exactly MosheFeingold Jun 2018 #38
I don't think that we can assume even that. yardwork Jun 2018 #75
That's a completely different issue for two big reasons. Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #33
Going to have to disagree with you regarding bakers and cake decorators, at least. Jedi Guy Jun 2018 #59
Bakers and decorators are artist and do express. But a fancy shape or curlicue has nothing to do Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #72
I wasn't stating an argument in favor of the baker. Jedi Guy Jun 2018 #74
I never said baking cakes is not an art. Or decorating them. You miss the essential point. Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #76
It's my sincerely held belief that Trump shouldn't be President. Hugin Jun 2018 #4
You may well obtain relief in that precedent could make you be safe from consequences of a refusing 24601 Jun 2018 #63
I'm sure that is being explained on Faux News. Hugin Jun 2018 #66
They want the just opposite of today's result. They wanted a sweeping ruling addressing 24601 Jun 2018 #71
So one can refuse to do business bucolic_frolic Jun 2018 #5
That wasn't ruled on Bradical79 Jun 2018 #23
no melm00se Jun 2018 #35
Agree with others that the court did not address anyone's refusal to do business with another. 24601 Jun 2018 #65
Kennedy wrote the decision... DonViejo Jun 2018 #7
Telling relogic Jun 2018 #9
Avoided the meat...good way to summarize it...or kicked the can down the road, also. No Panic! Fred Sanders Jun 2018 #15
Respectfully disagree MosheFeingold Jun 2018 #26
Well, this is depressing. n/t MBS Jun 2018 #10
It doesnt mean the bakery "wins", just that decision was tainted. 7962 Jun 2018 #11
It can't be refiled against this baker. former9thward Jun 2018 #46
Right... but his next customer could sue him for the same thing FBaggins Jun 2018 #81
I refuse to do business with MAGAts, Christian conservatives, and Fox News fans. Initech Jun 2018 #12
Amen,... relogic Jun 2018 #13
IMO it now means my apartment building can refuse rental to all christians or anyone else they RKP5637 Jun 2018 #16
Pointedly.. relogic Jun 2018 #19
Thanks! n/t RKP5637 Jun 2018 #20
No. Even a wider ruling (that was not made) would not apply to apartment buildings. Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #22
Thanks for the additional clarification!!! n/t RKP5637 Jun 2018 #24
But it's not just the message. christx30 Jun 2018 #43
If it is a tiered cake, no problem. Figurines no excuse, if customer specifies it. Read my post. Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #54
But it's not just baking a cake. christx30 Jun 2018 #77
It's not just creativity. That's no excuse. It has to involve expression related to religion etc. Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #78
A wedding cake IS expression related to religion FBaggins Jun 2018 #82
Nothing in your post 82 contradicts what I wrote. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #83
You don't specify the critical part Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #21
If you are a musician, or a painter or other artist The Mouth Jun 2018 #32
We serve people and service cars. Customers & clients are people, not machinery. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #55
Ok.... The Mouth Jun 2018 #62
Even though this ruled only that the case was tainted... Kablooie Jun 2018 #27
Yep. Nuance is not the Trumpistas' strong suit. nt SunSeeker Jun 2018 #36
Indeed... regnaD kciN Jun 2018 #57
It was a narrow decision - the Supremes should have passed on this one SharonClark Jun 2018 #28
We were waiting on this for a while. Will we hear about their gerrymandering decisions Tiggeroshii Jun 2018 #29
By the end of June. former9thward Jun 2018 #48
I was expecitng by september or october. Tiggeroshii Jun 2018 #52
The end of the current term is June 30, 2018. former9thward Jun 2018 #53
Thanks for the info!! Tiggeroshii Jun 2018 #56
Well, my response is never spend another penny WhiteTara Jun 2018 #30
How much money did you spend at this baker before? former9thward Jun 2018 #49
Well, Ultimately RobinA Jun 2018 #58
This whole thing makes me sick Dorn Jun 2018 #31
This message was self-deleted by its author RhodeIslandOne Jun 2018 #39
Makes me sick too. SunSeeker Jun 2018 #41
So wasn't it the civil rights commission's JOB to show "animus" to discrimination? SunSeeker Jun 2018 #37
I assume you feel that this should go both ways then, correct? metalbot Jun 2018 #42
How about you answer my question first? nt SunSeeker Jun 2018 #44
Ok, here's your answer metalbot Jun 2018 #45
Baking a cake is not speech. It is a good. It is not akin to a mural signed by an artist. SunSeeker Jun 2018 #47
"Baking a cake is not speech. It is a good." Jedi Guy Jun 2018 #60
A fancy cake is still a cake. A fancy purse is still a purse. SunSeeker Jun 2018 #64
I'm not arguing the morality of not selling to a buyer because of their sexual orientation. Jedi Guy Jun 2018 #67
I did read what you wrote. It just is wrong. Being artistic does not exempt you from the law. SunSeeker Jun 2018 #69
I did read what you wrote. It just is wrong. Being artistic does not exempt you from the law. SunSeeker Jun 2018 #70
You know what? Jedi Guy Jun 2018 #73
So the right is learning how to push Scalded Nun Jun 2018 #40
Except this wasn't a ruling sharply divided along party lines. Jedi Guy Jun 2018 #61
I wonder if the baker follows all his religions tenets religiously. rickford66 Jun 2018 #50
Statement from NY AG on this ruling Gothmog Jun 2018 #51
Most business rely on public accommodations to operate Yavin4 Jun 2018 #68
Bad Title - I know it's the one from the article and not yours for the OP. bitterross Jun 2018 #79
Kick ck4829 Oct 2018 #84
Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»U.S. Supreme Court Throws...»Reply #67