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Bernardo de La Paz

(60,320 posts)

76. I never said baking cakes is not an art. Or decorating them. You miss the essential point.

Mon Jun 4, 2018, 09:33 PM

Jun 2018

Art doesn't matter. It's not an excuse to say the baker won't bake for gays.

Expression via art doesn't matter. It's not an excuse.

Decorating with writing of words composed by the client is not expressing the words. It is not an excuse.

But ...

If the client asks the decorator / baker to COMPOSE some wording, then they can be excused on the basis of religion just like you can be excused from writing an essay on the "wonderfulness of Trump" if you are a professional essay writer or playing a Ted "Pants Nugget" Nugent song if you are a guitarist. In all three cases you can't be compelled to create anything that is an expression against your beliefs or ethos.

A beautiful cake is neutral with respect to beliefs and religion and ethos.

If you are a professional cake baker freelancing or running your own business (offering your services to the public, i.e. a "public accommodation") and you are asked to bake a beautiful $2,000 cake with no lettering and no figurines, just lovely floral designs of your own creation, you CANNOT refuse to bake it for a gay couple. Even if they ask you to write "John and Richard, United in Love" you can't refuse -- they have not asked you to compose that wording.

In my unqualified legal opinion.

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U.S. Supreme Court Throws Out Gay-Bias Finding Against Baker [View all] demmiblue Jun 2018 OP

Before complaining about conservative bias, be aware this was a 7-2 vote. brooklynite Jun 2018 #1

Really?? a kennedy Jun 2018 #2

Ginsberg & Sotomayer were the 2 votes. 7962 Jun 2018 #6

Thanks, just read that...... a kennedy Jun 2018 #8

wtf kagan? DonCoquixote Jun 2018 #80

Also, the grounds were narrow, so there is little precedent that will flow from this decision. . .nt Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #18

And when a gay couple is refused service at a lunch counter? Faygo Kid Jun 2018 #3

The case was decided narrowly on "bias" by the state commissioner. As the article states the Fred Sanders Jun 2018 #14

That would be different, I think Seeking Serenity Jun 2018 #17

That's not what the opinion is about MosheFeingold Jun 2018 #25

Or a Jewish printer being asked to christx30 Jun 2018 #34

Exactly MosheFeingold Jun 2018 #38

I don't think that we can assume even that. yardwork Jun 2018 #75

That's a completely different issue for two big reasons. Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #33

Going to have to disagree with you regarding bakers and cake decorators, at least. Jedi Guy Jun 2018 #59

Bakers and decorators are artist and do express. But a fancy shape or curlicue has nothing to do Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #72

I wasn't stating an argument in favor of the baker. Jedi Guy Jun 2018 #74

I never said baking cakes is not an art. Or decorating them. You miss the essential point. Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #76

It's my sincerely held belief that Trump shouldn't be President. Hugin Jun 2018 #4

You may well obtain relief in that precedent could make you be safe from consequences of a refusing 24601 Jun 2018 #63

I'm sure that is being explained on Faux News. Hugin Jun 2018 #66

They want the just opposite of today's result. They wanted a sweeping ruling addressing 24601 Jun 2018 #71

So one can refuse to do business bucolic_frolic Jun 2018 #5

That wasn't ruled on Bradical79 Jun 2018 #23

no melm00se Jun 2018 #35

Agree with others that the court did not address anyone's refusal to do business with another. 24601 Jun 2018 #65

Kennedy wrote the decision... DonViejo Jun 2018 #7

Telling relogic Jun 2018 #9

Avoided the meat...good way to summarize it...or kicked the can down the road, also. No Panic! Fred Sanders Jun 2018 #15

Respectfully disagree MosheFeingold Jun 2018 #26

Well, this is depressing. n/t MBS Jun 2018 #10

It doesnt mean the bakery "wins", just that decision was tainted. 7962 Jun 2018 #11

It can't be refiled against this baker. former9thward Jun 2018 #46

Right... but his next customer could sue him for the same thing FBaggins Jun 2018 #81

I refuse to do business with MAGAts, Christian conservatives, and Fox News fans. Initech Jun 2018 #12

Amen,... relogic Jun 2018 #13

IMO it now means my apartment building can refuse rental to all christians or anyone else they RKP5637 Jun 2018 #16

Pointedly.. relogic Jun 2018 #19

Thanks! n/t RKP5637 Jun 2018 #20

No. Even a wider ruling (that was not made) would not apply to apartment buildings. Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #22

Thanks for the additional clarification!!! n/t RKP5637 Jun 2018 #24

But it's not just the message. christx30 Jun 2018 #43

If it is a tiered cake, no problem. Figurines no excuse, if customer specifies it. Read my post. Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #54

But it's not just baking a cake. christx30 Jun 2018 #77

It's not just creativity. That's no excuse. It has to involve expression related to religion etc. Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #78

A wedding cake IS expression related to religion FBaggins Jun 2018 #82

Nothing in your post 82 contradicts what I wrote. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #83

You don't specify the critical part Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #21

If you are a musician, or a painter or other artist The Mouth Jun 2018 #32

We serve people and service cars. Customers & clients are people, not machinery. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2018 #55

Ok.... The Mouth Jun 2018 #62

Even though this ruled only that the case was tainted... Kablooie Jun 2018 #27

Yep. Nuance is not the Trumpistas' strong suit. nt SunSeeker Jun 2018 #36

Indeed... regnaD kciN Jun 2018 #57

It was a narrow decision - the Supremes should have passed on this one SharonClark Jun 2018 #28

We were waiting on this for a while. Will we hear about their gerrymandering decisions Tiggeroshii Jun 2018 #29

By the end of June. former9thward Jun 2018 #48

I was expecitng by september or october. Tiggeroshii Jun 2018 #52

The end of the current term is June 30, 2018. former9thward Jun 2018 #53

Thanks for the info!! Tiggeroshii Jun 2018 #56

Well, my response is never spend another penny WhiteTara Jun 2018 #30

How much money did you spend at this baker before? former9thward Jun 2018 #49

Well, Ultimately RobinA Jun 2018 #58

This whole thing makes me sick Dorn Jun 2018 #31

This message was self-deleted by its author RhodeIslandOne Jun 2018 #39

Makes me sick too. SunSeeker Jun 2018 #41

So wasn't it the civil rights commission's JOB to show "animus" to discrimination? SunSeeker Jun 2018 #37

I assume you feel that this should go both ways then, correct? metalbot Jun 2018 #42

How about you answer my question first? nt SunSeeker Jun 2018 #44

Ok, here's your answer metalbot Jun 2018 #45

Baking a cake is not speech. It is a good. It is not akin to a mural signed by an artist. SunSeeker Jun 2018 #47

"Baking a cake is not speech. It is a good." Jedi Guy Jun 2018 #60

A fancy cake is still a cake. A fancy purse is still a purse. SunSeeker Jun 2018 #64

I'm not arguing the morality of not selling to a buyer because of their sexual orientation. Jedi Guy Jun 2018 #67

I did read what you wrote. It just is wrong. Being artistic does not exempt you from the law. SunSeeker Jun 2018 #69

I did read what you wrote. It just is wrong. Being artistic does not exempt you from the law. SunSeeker Jun 2018 #70

You know what? Jedi Guy Jun 2018 #73

So the right is learning how to push Scalded Nun Jun 2018 #40

Except this wasn't a ruling sharply divided along party lines. Jedi Guy Jun 2018 #61

I wonder if the baker follows all his religions tenets religiously. rickford66 Jun 2018 #50

Statement from NY AG on this ruling Gothmog Jun 2018 #51

Most business rely on public accommodations to operate Yavin4 Jun 2018 #68

Bad Title - I know it's the one from the article and not yours for the OP. bitterross Jun 2018 #79

Kick ck4829 Oct 2018 #84