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happyslug

(14,779 posts)
38. No one has EVER made money moving paying passengers
Wed Oct 10, 2012, 11:08 PM
Oct 2012

I have to use the term "Paying Passengers" for the old slave ships did make money shipping "Passengers" to the new world, but with that exception, Adam Smith in his book "The Wealth of Nations" made that observation AT THAT TIME and remains true today. When you hear of successful passenger service, it is either for a very short period of time, heavily subsidized or both.

Airplane service is an good example, air lines received direct subsidies from the Post Office from the 1920s to the 1940s. Afterward Airlines received indirect subsidies (Mail is ship on Passenger planes on a "Space available" basis, this permit the planes to fly with their cargo hold full, even if they have very few passengers). Similar indirect subsidies were provided by the Post Office to Streetcars and Buses when they were privately owned from 1900 to the 1960s. The Post Office could have dropped off its mail cheaper if it used its own trucks, but used Streetcar drivers and Bus Drivers to pick up and drop off mail not only to other Post Officers, but to Letter Carriers on their route by dropping the mail to be delivered in mail boxes on their route (Both the boxes that take mail, and the grey boxes you can NOT drop mail into). Till the 1970s, in many urban areas, Carriers were expected to get to their route by public transportation, the Post Office would buy them passes to do so. These streetcar and bus systems received the subsidy whether the carrier used the passes or not.

One study has found that if you removed the subsidies provided by the Government in the form of building Airports, none of the Air Lines have EVER made money. People do NOT really value what it costs to move them about and for that reason will NOT pay what it costs to move them about.

If you look at the old Interurban Streetcar system, once the local subsidy provided by the various towns along the right of way removed their subsidy (Given to the Interurban so they would provide an alternative to the Steam Locomotives Railways of the time period), most went bankrupt (The few that did not, did so by converting to Freight operations such as the Lackawanna & Wyoming Valley Railroad, "The Laurel Line" which converted to Freight only service in 1952).

You see this over and over again, Passenger Service, on its own, constantly failing unless they is some sort of subsidy. This may be a direct subsidy (government or other) or an indirect subsidy such as Freight carrying most of the costs, while passengers paying only for the additional costs relating to transporting them (How Ships paid for passenger service, even today you can get a cabin on a "Tramp Steamer" for the freighter already has to have a cook and sewards for the crew, so a few additional passengers is no real additional costs. Similar cross subsidies exist in other areas where passengers are being transported.

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Here's hoping TSA doesn't start jamming probes up the asses of train riders Kennah Oct 2012 #1
That's why we take it instead of flying. AllyCat Oct 2012 #9
I rode Amtrak from Oregon to North Carolina last year. Speck Tater Oct 2012 #2
Could you tell me, how much did that run? I'd like to go from WA. to CT. freshwest Oct 2012 #4
Last year, our family of 4 took part of that route (Empire Builder-Capital Limted) AllyCat Oct 2012 #10
Did you guys get a Pullman cabin, or whatever it's called now? freshwest Oct 2012 #17
cabins were more expensive one way than the whole fare for all 4 AllyCat Oct 2012 #25
I got a sleeper room on a trip from Portland to L.A. a couple years ago Speck Tater Oct 2012 #29
My Sister takes the Empire Builder From Minnisota to Chicago, then the Capital Limited to Pittsburgh happyslug Oct 2012 #37
I rode from NJ to FL round-trip twice. athena Oct 2012 #34
I love Amtrak. Love it, I tell you. JDPriestly Oct 2012 #3
And no car seats for the kids! n/t AllyCat Oct 2012 #11
Kids ride upstairs! JDPriestly Oct 2012 #13
There should be some Obama-Biden Voters Cha Oct 2012 #5
Why are they out to privatize our best and finest? Seems vulture capitalistic to me. SleeplessinSoCal Oct 2012 #6
Passenger transportation of any kind is very expensive, elleng Oct 2012 #8
No one has EVER made money moving paying passengers happyslug Oct 2012 #38
Right. Look at European passenger rail, elleng Oct 2012 #41
For the same number of passengers or quantity of freight transported... AdHocSolver Oct 2012 #18
But if you can have a lot of people who buy gasoline and pay gasoline taxes, Trucks are cheaper happyslug Oct 2012 #39
will dems vote to kill it in the name of deficit reduction while the military rapes the budget? nt msongs Oct 2012 #7
And this is another organization that the republicans want to privatize. BVictor1 Oct 2012 #12
Freight carriers didn't want the burden of passenger service, elleng Oct 2012 #14
I travel long distance in exactly two different ways: cliffordu Oct 2012 #15
When I took a 24 hr Amtrak trip back in 2003 I thought the meals in the dining car were excellent. kestrel91316 Oct 2012 #30
My Dad retired from Amtrak, and he worked for the railroad before there was an Amtrak Kennah Oct 2012 #16
Rail transportation has been DEregulated over the years, elleng Oct 2012 #19
I live in China. I prefer the Chinese train system to the airports everyday of the week. Suji to Seoul Oct 2012 #20
We are taking our annual trip from Virginia to seattle on amtrak in a couple weeks peacebird Oct 2012 #21
Republicans hate subsidizing Amtrak wilt the stilt Oct 2012 #22
I'm taking my first Amtrak trip next week! OnionPatch Oct 2012 #23
I have family in Milwaukee and would love to take Amtrak LA to MW but I couldn't do it sitting up in kestrel91316 Oct 2012 #31
Cell phones and internet access. Who wants to drive? /nt Festivito Oct 2012 #24
Yup! No one cares if you use your phone. Outlets at nearly every seat. AllyCat Oct 2012 #26
If AMTRAK put a heated baggage car in the back, and beside it put MADem Oct 2012 #27
+1 Blue Owl Oct 2012 #33
Several years ago my daughter went by train from Chicago to madmom Oct 2012 #28
And here Romney/Ryan want to KILL Amtrak by privatization Blue Owl Oct 2012 #32
Because they are brainwashed by Faux News. Auntie Bush Oct 2012 #35
Just think what it could do if it had decent service KamaAina Oct 2012 #36
The Amtrak train I took from Seattle to Vancouver, B.C. Aristus Oct 2012 #40
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