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ellisonz

(27,776 posts)

171. Wow.

Tue Jan 17, 2012, 10:08 PM

Jan 2012

You just don't get it...when you introduce guns in an uncontrolled manner into an environment with high tensions the likely outcome is going to be shootings. To believe otherwise is just utter nonsense and misunderstanding of how and why conflicts occur. You still haven't answered my question, do you believe hospitals need good security measures or are carriers enough to deter violence?

I think you do a real injustice to your own cause when you deny the history of terrorism and violence in situations and use pejoratives to flail at those who disagrees with you; in fact, it makes it look like you don't give much thought to anyone but yourself. I don't have to agree with some of the stupid things TSA or hospitals do to think it's become necessary.

Eubanks said Benson had no criminal history and was licensed to carry a firearm. He said the suspect was seen arguing with his wife at the hospital earlier in the week and employees asked him to leave. At that point, they didn't find him threatening enough to call police.

"There was an exchange between him and his wife about her coming back home," Eubanks said. "Apparently he got a little loud and the hospital staff asked him to leave."

Benson returned to the hospital Friday and witnesses told police he again confronted his wife and mother-in-law.

"He told them they'd be sorry, walked to the car and came back with a gun in his pocket," Eubanks said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57354411/man-charged-with-murder-in-ga-hospital-shooting/

More: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/10/nyregion/gunman-wounds-nurse-and-guard-at-bronx-hospital.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/16/john-hopkins-hospital-sho_n_719435.html
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/r/2097548/detail.html

Hospitals and guns don't mix. Hospitals should have effective security measures. Period.

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Should guns be banned in hospitals? [View all] Judi Lynn Jan 2012 OP

In answer to your question. jonthebru Jan 2012 #1

Should this even be a question? Good lord.... likesmountains 52 Jan 2012 #2

EXACTLY!!! elleng Jan 2012 #158

I'm with Linda Quick... Suich Jan 2012 #3

ALZ patient in possession...omg.. prismpalette Jan 2012 #91

Quick, call the NRA! They have a solution for this head shot wound! CTyankee Jan 2012 #303

Sure - as long as they can somehow guarantee one will never be needed there. dmallind Jan 2012 #4

Right, because you just never know... primavera Jan 2012 #279

Yep that's right dmallind Jan 2012 #281

Kind of makes you wish... primavera Jan 2012 #283

Yep - but how do you prevent wackos from getting them dmallind Jan 2012 #285

Strawman primavera Jan 2012 #286

A few things.... PavePusher Jan 2012 #287

... and a few responses primavera Jan 2012 #288

...and counter-response. 8>) PavePusher Jan 2012 #289

Agree to disagree primavera Jan 2012 #291

That straw man has a strange ability to shoot at people it seems dmallind Jan 2012 #292

It is impossible to keep guns entirely out of the hands of wackos primavera Jan 2012 #294

Another Strawman: PavePusher Jan 2012 #295

Ah yes, name calling primavera Jan 2012 #296

Name calling? Where? I identified your accusation for what it is: A Strawman. No name calling. PavePusher Jan 2012 #297

I see primavera Jan 2012 #298

Now you've termed disagreement and debate as "spoiling for a fight"? PavePusher Jan 2012 #299

They have anesthesia now Kolesar Jan 2012 #280

Only if it applies to cops and they have metal detectors.. Monty22001 Jan 2012 #5

I agree. Lasher Jan 2012 #29

A CCW permit holder should be able to carry a gun anywhere a cop can. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #71

Are CCW permit holders less trustworthy than cops? Lasher Jan 2012 #76

Actually CCW permit holders are slightly more likely than police to commit crimes. boppers Jan 2012 #210

I went to the website you linked but I was unable to find anything that supports your assertion. Lasher Jan 2012 #213

Yeah, I was just amused by the data. It was slim (CCW vs. LEO), but couldn't find it again. boppers Jan 2012 #219

Here's a graphical representation.. X_Digger Jan 2012 #224

I can't argue with that, Boppers, some CCW permit holders do commit crimes. Lasher Jan 2012 #227

Perhaps you should ask some cops how much training they actually get. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #80

Oh, yes. NRA talking point #23490: The average CCW holder has MUCH more proficiency with a firearm! Missy Vixen Jan 2012 #214

Actually, a CCW permit holder helped restrain Loughner. Lasher Jan 2012 #222

So, Zamudo's gun was pointless. boppers Jan 2012 #223

OK, for the sake of argument I'll agree for a moment that his gun was pointless. Lasher Jan 2012 #228

His reaction was false heroism. boppers Jan 2012 #244

All of our military service men and women are armed with weapons. Lasher Jan 2012 #245

Check their firing rate. boppers Jan 2012 #246

And neither does it make a person a coward, as you clearly claimed. Lasher Jan 2012 #247

This message was self-deleted by its author boppers Jan 2012 #248

Well, that wasn't my claim. boppers Jan 2012 #251

Yes, it certainly was your claim. Lasher Jan 2012 #253

...and: boppers Jan 2012 #258

That is some interesting kinda 'logic' right there. Lasher Jan 2012 #259

they are also "licensed" or other wise permitted by the government to carry weapons. CTyankee Jan 2012 #302

Yes, they have permission to carry firearms, just like Joe Zamudio does. Lasher Jan 2012 #304

Do police have some mythical skill with guns that the common Citizen does not? PavePusher Jan 2012 #93

"Or do you think cops are just handed a uniform after the gun training and let on the street? " atreides1 Jan 2012 #128

I Work RobinA Jan 2012 #105

Are there metal detectors? Lasher Jan 2012 #115

Well, that is wonderful. Because no bad guy would ever ignore that rule. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #127

me too irisblue Jan 2012 #282

Are you a CCW permit holder? Do you carry your gun to hospitals, churches, preschools, etc? rbixby Jan 2012 #116

Yes, I am a CCW permit holder. Lasher Jan 2012 #118

And it would be necessary and safe to bring one to say, a preschool? rbixby Jan 2012 #123

A preschool would be safer with me there with my gun than it would be otherwise. Lasher Jan 2012 #132

Let me help you here... Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #144

Wikipedia's value cannot be overstated. Lasher Jan 2012 #149

Okay, fine...here's what Oxford says Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #154

I imagine we often trivialize or minimize those sources... LanternWaste Jan 2012 #231

If not carried with criminal intent, nothing particularly unsafe about it. PavePusher Jan 2012 #178

I just don't see the need rbixby Jan 2012 #202

Simply put, you are projecting your assumed impulse control issues on others... PavePusher Jan 2012 #203

I agree that you're well within your rights rbixby Jan 2012 #204

I have no need to kill anyone. I have the need to defend myself. PavePusher Jan 2012 #205

My favorite example Missy Vixen Jan 2012 #215

Not having any real substantial position on the overall issue, I will add that... LanternWaste Jan 2012 #232

If you're refering to the Hemenway "study", it's been pretty thoroughly demolished via peer review. PavePusher Jan 2012 #275

It's tragedy too late when it happens Politicalboi Jan 2012 #6

Will the converse be true as well? PavePusher Jan 2012 #206

Is this a trick question? yellerpup Jan 2012 #7

That's just crazy talk. onehandle Jan 2012 #8

You consider everyone in the hospital Monty22001 Jan 2012 #9

Combining "common sense" and "logic" with "guns" and "Florida" will always get you truthisfreedom Jan 2012 #10

LOL! You got that right! nt zanana1 Jan 2012 #40

Combining "common sense" and "logic" with "guns" and "Florida" will always get you AlbertCat Jan 2012 #66

Regional bigotry sure is popular on D.U. PavePusher Jan 2012 #94

Uh.... Doc Holliday Jan 2012 #278

"Maybe they should HAND OUT guns as you enter the hospital to make sure everyone is safe!" KansDem Jan 2012 #100

Thanks for digging this up! Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #125

Heartbreaking when you remember Hugh O'Connor died by self-inflicted gun shot tpsbmam Jan 2012 #129

You open another can of worms. Lasher Jan 2012 #136

I've stopped MANY people from committing suicide who later were very happy I did..... tpsbmam Jan 2012 #146

+1 harun Jan 2012 #73

reccomend madrchsod Jan 2012 #81

Or lower rates of gun violence in the case of Florida. hack89 Jan 2012 #113

I think a privately-owned institution of any sort ought to be able to ban petronius Jan 2012 #11

Most conservatives resent the federal gov't. telling them what to do. zanana1 Jan 2012 #41

What about publicly owned hospitals ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #53

In general, I oppose the relevant government banning an otherwise legal activity petronius Jan 2012 #101

No, guns shouldnt be banned cstanleytech Jan 2012 #12

Don't forget patients having MRI's Lost-in-FL Jan 2012 #13

They can have the Glock 7 Monty22001 Jan 2012 #15

Only if they plan to take over the airport and use the hospital to override the tower Kennah Jan 2012 #20

Yes but do they have the ability to land ponys from the hospital? cstanleytech Jan 2012 #21

Glad someone got the joke.. Monty22001 Jan 2012 #38

Of course there's no metal in it. AtheistCrusader Jan 2012 #32

In case some person unfamiliar with fireams reads your post... spin Jan 2012 #86

You wouldn't be... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #179

I like facts better than fantasy... spin Jan 2012 #187

Well then... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #194

In Florida in order to legally carry a firearm in a hospital you would have to have... spin Jan 2012 #14

Those are the "official" laws. zanana1 Jan 2012 #42

There you go, injecting troublesome FACTS into a discussion about guns. baldguy Jan 2012 #45

That "fact" was already conceded by the previous poster joeglow3 Jan 2012 #117

Do you have some statistics from the FBI or DOJ Lurks Often Jan 2012 #49

Is there any other kind of law? Atypical Liberal Jan 2012 #54

And they matter and are enforced. ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #55

Cite, please. n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #60

Very true. Criminals do break the law all the time... spin Jan 2012 #82

What makes you think that someone who would flout the law and carry without a permit.. X_Digger Jan 2012 #85

You seem to allude to "unofficial" laws. PavePusher Jan 2012 #95

Since you are talking about criminals, why do you think more laws will stop criminals? nt hack89 Jan 2012 #114

re: <Those are the "official" laws.> discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #182

What could possibly go wrong? grantcart Jan 2012 #16

Were guns allowed there? Monty22001 Jan 2012 #17

Compliance on any desired behavior increases when codified into law. mbperrin Jan 2012 #19

So.. Monty22001 Jan 2012 #23

Let's just burn the colleges down, then. mbperrin Jan 2012 #140

So we need more rules Monty22001 Jan 2012 #151

You're talking correlation, not causation. mbperrin Jan 2012 #159

And what remedy do you propose for those law-abiding people.... PavePusher Jan 2012 #61

Thought you didn't like hyperbole? mbperrin Jan 2012 #141

Hyperbole on my part? No, fact. PavePusher Jan 2012 #155

Virginia Tech was not disarmed. Police had lots of guns. mbperrin Jan 2012 #160

Those trapped students waiting to die were disarmed. nt hack89 Jan 2012 #163

Nice defelction-fail. Try... again. n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #168

Nice non-response. No need to try anything at all. mbperrin Jan 2012 #188

I'm not the one who turned to irrelevencies.... speaking of "no interest in an actual discussion"... PavePusher Jan 2012 #197

Well that certainly explains why nobody smokes pot in this law-abiding nation. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #79

Usage would increase with legalization. Yes? mbperrin Jan 2012 #143

I don't know, my Magic Eight Ball got broken years ago. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #145

Well, murder didn't stop, and not everybody got murdered. boppers Jan 2012 #211

No and he wasn't allowed to be there but he he easily got access to a gun and took it where grantcart Jan 2012 #26

It doesn't, and nobody suggested that it does. You introduced this murderer petronius Jan 2012 #30

I simply put it in because somebody up thread had indicated that there were no real instances of grantcart Jan 2012 #104

Trying to prevent it is what baffles me. If you know how to keep thugs with mayhem in mind from Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #147

Well think about it.. Monty22001 Jan 2012 #48

What defensive measures do you propose to insure the safety of those you would disarm? PavePusher Jan 2012 #62

None grantcart Jan 2012 #106

No-one has claimed they are "necessary". PavePusher Jan 2012 #111

Fascinating that you want to increase the pool of targets for criminals. PavePusher Jan 2012 #199

If only hospitals had knives of some kind, or maybe some sedatives, or restraints.... boppers Jan 2012 #212

If someone is trying to stab or shoot me, in a hospital.... PavePusher Jan 2012 #225

How many gunshot wounds do you have? boppers Jan 2012 #243

Relevence? n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #249

The relevance is how much you have spent on Tiger repellent. boppers Jan 2012 #250

Defaulting to freedom of choice is not "subjecting" anyone to anything. n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #169

Don't worry, Monty. zanana1 Jan 2012 #43

It's likely it was already illegal for this person to do what he did. Atypical Liberal Jan 2012 #56

And a law would have stopped this crime? Really? nt hack89 Jan 2012 #108

FFS, yes. My second choice is to make it mandatory for every man, woman, child, patient, cleric, doc mbperrin Jan 2012 #18

Kennesaw, Georgia illegal to not own a gun. E6-B Jan 2012 #28

They have no problems. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #67

So, cite the "problems". We'll wait.... n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #170

So, nothing, eh? Figures... n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #226

Not really accurate. According to this, they're safer than 35% of cities. That means mbperrin Jan 2012 #139

Good evening, friend. discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #185

That's not what it means, and that's not what it says. mbperrin Jan 2012 #189

In reply discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #193

See post 28 at the top of this thread. The stance you're defending is that Kennesaw has NO problems. mbperrin Jan 2012 #195

Regardless... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #200

Oooooo, hyperbole. That's effective.... when you're nine years old. n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #63

Just curious: Why is the OP not in Guns Group? nt SteveW Jan 2012 #264

Hospitals are dangerous places, just google 'rape hospital'. E6-B Jan 2012 #22

Yeah, hospitals are dangerous! baldguy Jan 2012 #46

My wife is a ICU/ER and sometimes charge Nurse, virginia mountainman Jan 2012 #24

Doesn't mean guns would have stopped those incidents... ellisonz Jan 2012 #35

But it does provide options to the victims ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #57

Of course not. Atypical Liberal Jan 2012 #58

If quakerboy Jan 2012 #25

Too bad this isn't Wisconsin. I think every health care facility AllyCat Jan 2012 #27

Yes. n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #31

No. LAGC Jan 2012 #33

I don't see how allowing... ellisonz Jan 2012 #34

Sorry, I didn't mean to reply to your post. LAGC Jan 2012 #36

"with secured gates and armed guards" ellisonz Jan 2012 #37

Where are these secured-entry hospitals with guards? I have never seen one. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #78

Nor have I and I have worked at 2 different hospitals. REACTIVATED IN CT Jan 2012 #87

So the solution is to improve security... ellisonz Jan 2012 #121

Still waiting to learn where those well-guarded hospitals are. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #148

They're not forts... ellisonz Jan 2012 #150

So the main entrance is the only entrance? You still have failed to identify even one of those Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #152

I am an ER Nurse at a level 1 trauma center Heddi Jan 2012 #165

Not the case with all hospitals. PavePusher Jan 2012 #172

Where is it? Not that I disbelieve you, I just like to have correct information. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #191

State Patrol.. doesn't your state have State Patrol officeres? Heddi Jan 2012 #196

Thank you for commenting. ellisonz Jan 2012 #209

No shit, me either. X_Digger Jan 2012 #88

So you want "security theater" in hospitals? n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #153

Please point out where I said something that a rational person could interpret that way, eh? X_Digger Jan 2012 #156

Easy with a search engine: ellisonz Jan 2012 #157

I notice you didn't quote anything about hospitals. X_Digger Jan 2012 #166

Wow. ellisonz Jan 2012 #171

"...the likely outcome is going to be shootings." PavePusher Jan 2012 #174

Do you think they do studies on this exact question? ellisonz Jan 2012 #176

Crime stats are freely available. Go to the light. n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #177

On comparitive policies on gun possession and relation to shooting incidents in hospitals? ellisonz Jan 2012 #180

Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #192

Neither. X_Digger Jan 2012 #183

They don't allow them in the ER here at Huntsville Hospital, because of GANGS. Atypical Liberal Jan 2012 #59

Exactly. ellisonz Jan 2012 #120

Note that this is only for the ER. n/t Atypical Liberal Jan 2012 #142

guns should only be allowed in hospitals. Tunkamerica Jan 2012 #39

Yes, and also in nursery schools and on rollercoasters... Rhiannon12866 Jan 2012 #44

Is there any evidence that legally owned firearms are a problem in hospitals? Flatulo Jan 2012 #47

How dare you bring that kind of question up!! SteveW Jan 2012 #265

Yes FunkyLeprechaun Jan 2012 #50

To make a proper point.. Monty22001 Jan 2012 #51

the doctor being shot was done by someone that was legally carrying. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #68

Wow you missed the point Monty22001 Jan 2012 #74

Holy shit. That flew a mile over your head. joeglow3 Jan 2012 #119

Yes jpak Jan 2012 #52

Yes of course. Who needs a needle when you've got a gun. Death with Dignity. denem Jan 2012 #64

"panders to the anti-gun political agenda"... No, it's much better we... TreasonousBastard Jan 2012 #65

TB, how did this post last so long in this forum, yet didn't get in "Guns?" nt SteveW Jan 2012 #266

If one thinks they need a gun with them at all times even in a hospital abelenkpe Jan 2012 #69

Surely you can provide some guarantee of security in exchange for disarming the public.... amIrite? PavePusher Jan 2012 #97

Once again I am deeply embarrased by what my home state is doing. d_legendary1 Jan 2012 #70

And the problem with that would be.... ? n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #98

What better place Turbineguy Jan 2012 #72

Why? What problem would it solve? What would it prevent? cleanhippie Jan 2012 #75

Of course...no bad guy would ever think of violating a ban. Gun-free zones are 100% safe. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #77

Like a sign ever stopped anyone who might do harm? X_Digger Jan 2012 #83

the hospitals I know use weapons detection and security checks marions ghost Jan 2012 #161

None in any hospital in Dallas/Houston (that I've been to).. X_Digger Jan 2012 #167

of course (as in Duh) marions ghost Jan 2012 #84

So if a bad guy decides to ignore the gun ban and comes in armed, your preference is that NOBODY Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #89

Actually, under the same pesly convention I alluded nadinbrzezinski Jan 2012 #92

ROTFLMAO...if we "decent" into a civil war, guns in hospitals will be the least of our worries. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #110

My preference is that he doen't get in in the first place marions ghost Jan 2012 #162

Well, just have them put up a sign. That always works. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #190

this is a no brainer nadinbrzezinski Jan 2012 #90

Err, please detail how the Geneva Convention applies to legally armed civilians.... PavePusher Jan 2012 #99

The Geneva Convention does not allow people nadinbrzezinski Jan 2012 #103

Wrong! hack89 Jan 2012 #107

Cite, please. n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #112

Take your time, we'll wait. n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #181

re: "...Geneva Convention..." discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #186

Still... waiting.... <YAWN>....... n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #198

After 46 hours with no evidentiary support, I'm assuming you don't have any. PavePusher Jan 2012 #207

Well... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #229

I'm leaning towards "counter-credible" myself... ;>) n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #233

You'd better check... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #234

She may not have seen your post - she has me on ignore hack89 Jan 2012 #239

Her loss. n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #242

HA! BTW, why is this OP not in Guns Group? It's been here 4 days. nt SteveW Jan 2012 #267

I'm assuming it has something to do with who posted it. PavePusher Jan 2012 #272

Watch out! You'll get alerted! And hidden!!... SteveW Jan 2012 #274

No freakin' way! gratuitous Jan 2012 #96

How would that do any good? Taverner Jan 2012 #102

A meaningless, feel good law without guards and metal detectors to enforce it. nt hack89 Jan 2012 #109

From your comments, I feel as if you'd be for it once the funds are allocated. JackRiddler Jan 2012 #135

No - I don't support such laws. nt hack89 Jan 2012 #138

It should be illegal in hospitals, but legal in insurance companies yurbud Jan 2012 #122

YES!!!! Sancho Jan 2012 #124

I would have to disagree- people need to be armed in hospitals Dragonbreathp9d Jan 2012 #126

I missed your post and apologize for No. 133. JackRiddler Jan 2012 #134

Having worked in a few hospitals, incl. inner-city Chicago, I vote an unequivocal YES! nt tpsbmam Jan 2012 #130

No way. Hospitals are the best place for a shooting. JackRiddler Jan 2012 #131

Yep, the real "fixer uppers!" What could be better? CTyankee Jan 2012 #301

Do the zombie outbreaks ever start anywhere else? JackRiddler Jan 2012 #133

Ha! Great minds think alike Dragonbreathp9d Jan 2012 #137

kick Angry Dragon Jan 2012 #164

HELL YES! burrowowl Jan 2012 #173

Ban them in hospitals? Hell Yes. BigDemVoter Jan 2012 #175

Hospitals seem like a perfectly reasonable place to carry guns Renew Deal Jan 2012 #184

Of course minavasht Jan 2012 #201

If guns are not permitted, hospital authorities can take them away from people at the doors. JDPriestly Jan 2012 #220

Because this thread is still going... ellisonz Jan 2012 #208

OK, I'll play. Lasher Jan 2012 #230

This is the funny thing about anti-gun control propaganda... ellisonz Jan 2012 #235

I think the gun control propaganda makes less sense. Lasher Jan 2012 #236

Not really the forum to do it... ellisonz Jan 2012 #237

No, you posted crap from a major Florida newspaper. Lasher Jan 2012 #238

Take it up with the Miami Herald... ellisonz Jan 2012 #240

Cop out. Lasher Jan 2012 #241

YUP! NAILED! fascisthunter Jan 2012 #255

No--if somebody is legally able to carry a gun why shouldn't that extend to hospitals TheCruces Jan 2012 #216

Temporary insanity caused by depression at the loss or illness of a loved one JDPriestly Jan 2012 #218

Temporary insanity can happen anywhere TheCruces Jan 2012 #252

At the very least, hospitals and courts should be gun-free. JDPriestly Jan 2012 #271

Courts are gun-free here TheCruces Jan 2012 #273

Yes. JDPriestly Jan 2012 #217

I know right. Herlong Jan 2012 #221

yes as well as just about everywhere else.... bowens43 Jan 2012 #254

Um... YES! fascisthunter Jan 2012 #256

Yes, absolutely and without question Politicub Jan 2012 #257

Because they all have perfect security and no-one will ever need to defend themselves in one? n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #260

Nothing is perfect in an imperfect world Politicub Jan 2012 #261

"<My> Mad Max view of things"? Where do you get that bit of hyperbole from? PavePusher Jan 2012 #263

I don't understand, the hospitals aren't allowed to forbid firearms? Humanist_Activist Jan 2012 #262

Right now, hospitals can, if they choose (some do, some don't.) X_Digger Jan 2012 #270

Yes underpants Jan 2012 #268

A simple answer to a dumb question Mosaic Jan 2012 #269

Yes. supernova Jan 2012 #276

guns in hospital full auto guns Jan 2012 #277

This "ban" would only work against folks who follow the law w4rma Jan 2012 #284

Of course! And what better place to have a gun incident but in a place that handles such things CTyankee Jan 2012 #300

Of course. Zoeisright Jan 2012 #290

DR Found in Yonkers Jan 2012 #293