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In reply to the discussion: Pfc. Bradley Manning offers guilty plea in Wikileaks case [View all]freshwest
(53,661 posts)109. I met Ellsberg at Rice University where he met with students, inspired us to go to D.C.
We got more involved with politics than we before, helping mobilize student anti-war actions across the USA. From Wikipedia entry on the Pentagon Papers:
In February 1971 Ellsberg discussed the study with New York Times reporter Neil Sheehan, and gave 43 of the volumes to him in March. The Times began publishing excerpts on June 13, 1971; the first article in the series was titled "Vietnam Archive: Pentagon Study Traces Three Decades of Growing US Involvement". The name "Pentagon Papers" for the study arose during the resulting media publicity.[3][5] Street protests, political controversy and lawsuits followed.
To ensure the possibility of public debate about the content of the papers, on June 29, US Senator Mike Gravel (then Democrat, Alaska) entered 4,100 pages of the Papers to the record of his Subcommittee on Public Buildings and Grounds. These portions of the Papers were subsequently published by Beacon Press, the publishing arm of the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations.[6]
Article I, Section 6 of the United States Constitution provides that "for any Speech or Debate in either House, [a Senator or Representative] shall not be questioned in any other Place", thus the Senator could not be prosecuted for anything said on the Senate floor, and, by extension, for anything entered to the Congressional Record, allowing the Papers to be publicly read without threat of a treason trial and conviction. This was confirmed by the Supreme Court in the decision Gravel v. United States.
I suppose this is why we can't get at Daryl Issa for his stunts, releasing information. Many arguments do not take these factors into account, nor do they take into account how the majority in the Congress of Senate is essential to bring things to the public, to investigate, to change things.
We had a brief window around the time Obama was elected, with many investigations by John Conyers and others, and those who deny it was brief or what the issues of Democratic Party control of doing things, I no longer cite the proof. They just want to bash Democrats without learning the basics or the numbers. They consider these details beneath them as they talk about great causes, but those details, like the state races, are what makes what happens in D.C. happen. It's boring until it all comes together to do something good or bad. and there is really no surprise what apathy leads to - plutocrats winning.
Ellsberg, Kerry, MLK and the Kennedys shaped my life and those who I knew, mid-sixties thorugh the mid-seventies. Our focus varied from civil rights, voting rights, women's and gay rights, anti-war, to environmental, immigrants and unions. There is never a lack of things to work toward, the work is multi-generational.
I have never forgotten when I saw Mike Gravel's tearful testimony as he entered the words into the Congressional Record to preserve them for the public. Nixon was hot after everyone to get the disclosure stopped, but this was the way to get it done.
You are right. I feel certain Kucinich or Sanders would have done the same as Gravel with this information. It was the reason I supported Gravel in the 2008 primaries. When he did not get the nomination, I checked out Obama and I have no regretted my choice as being the best man for the job.
As Gravel and Ellsberg said, Presidents are not in the same position as they were. When I met with a group of Democrats and listened Kucinich in a Q & A session and people were furious at Obama for the war not ending fast enough, he said the same thing, that Obama's job is not the same as that of a Representative and he supported Obama as a progressive.
In case you never saw the unedited Gravel video, here it is:
In February 1971 Ellsberg discussed the study with New York Times reporter Neil Sheehan, and gave 43 of the volumes to him in March. The Times began publishing excerpts on June 13, 1971; the first article in the series was titled "Vietnam Archive: Pentagon Study Traces Three Decades of Growing US Involvement". The name "Pentagon Papers" for the study arose during the resulting media publicity.[3][5] Street protests, political controversy and lawsuits followed.
To ensure the possibility of public debate about the content of the papers, on June 29, US Senator Mike Gravel (then Democrat, Alaska) entered 4,100 pages of the Papers to the record of his Subcommittee on Public Buildings and Grounds. These portions of the Papers were subsequently published by Beacon Press, the publishing arm of the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations.[6]
Article I, Section 6 of the United States Constitution provides that "for any Speech or Debate in either House, [a Senator or Representative] shall not be questioned in any other Place", thus the Senator could not be prosecuted for anything said on the Senate floor, and, by extension, for anything entered to the Congressional Record, allowing the Papers to be publicly read without threat of a treason trial and conviction. This was confirmed by the Supreme Court in the decision Gravel v. United States.
I suppose this is why we can't get at Daryl Issa for his stunts, releasing information. Many arguments do not take these factors into account, nor do they take into account how the majority in the Congress of Senate is essential to bring things to the public, to investigate, to change things.
We had a brief window around the time Obama was elected, with many investigations by John Conyers and others, and those who deny it was brief or what the issues of Democratic Party control of doing things, I no longer cite the proof. They just want to bash Democrats without learning the basics or the numbers. They consider these details beneath them as they talk about great causes, but those details, like the state races, are what makes what happens in D.C. happen. It's boring until it all comes together to do something good or bad. and there is really no surprise what apathy leads to - plutocrats winning.
Ellsberg, Kerry, MLK and the Kennedys shaped my life and those who I knew, mid-sixties thorugh the mid-seventies. Our focus varied from civil rights, voting rights, women's and gay rights, anti-war, to environmental, immigrants and unions. There is never a lack of things to work toward, the work is multi-generational.
I have never forgotten when I saw Mike Gravel's tearful testimony as he entered the words into the Congressional Record to preserve them for the public. Nixon was hot after everyone to get the disclosure stopped, but this was the way to get it done.
You are right. I feel certain Kucinich or Sanders would have done the same as Gravel with this information. It was the reason I supported Gravel in the 2008 primaries. When he did not get the nomination, I checked out Obama and I have no regretted my choice as being the best man for the job.
As Gravel and Ellsberg said, Presidents are not in the same position as they were. When I met with a group of Democrats and listened Kucinich in a Q & A session and people were furious at Obama for the war not ending fast enough, he said the same thing, that Obama's job is not the same as that of a Representative and he supported Obama as a progressive.
In case you never saw the unedited Gravel video, here it is:
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I think your post should note that it is Manning's defense attorney that is pushing the gender
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#21
I doubt, however, that he is a condescending hypocrite who selectively ignores his own tagline
cprise
Nov 2012
#84
Manning had the choice to tell Kucinich, Sanders, or Franken, and he would have been
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#88
As has been pointed out, he could have used the Military Whistleblowers Protection Act.
randome
Nov 2012
#61
Well, the sheer volume, and his written statements to Lamo indicate that he could not
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#16
Okay..but that has nothing to do with the fact that Manning could not have possibly read
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#77
All of which he can argue at his sentencing--that he took special care while breaking the law. nt
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#107
Also should mention only Wikileaks had a safe tech infrastructure for whistleblowing
cprise
Nov 2012
#172
You know what would be fantastic. If you chose to learn what Manning actually did
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#9
He had the option of turning stuff over under the Military Whistleblowers Protection Act of 1988--
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#20
Well, sadly, if he had just googled more, he could have used the Military Whistelblowers Protection
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#26
No, he did not. He had already reported war crimes and had been told to shut up about
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#39
I see you know nothing about this case as I suspected. If you have to ask me what
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#49
Then enlighten us please. What did Manning do before he decided that reporting war
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#54
Nothing as far as I can see - that is why you need to substantiate your assertion
hack89
Nov 2012
#70
She needs to send it on to Manning's attorneys---they seem to have missed it. nt
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#78
Please post what 'shit' I made up. And try to calm down. You don't know anything about
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#98
So his claim that his chain of command ignored him is at the center of his defense .. oh wait.
hack89
Nov 2012
#97
Have you asked your friends to produce something to show that any investigation
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#140
Kindly show us where Manning used the Military Whistleblowers Protection Act of 1988, as you claim?
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#48
So you cannot document the legal steps Manning took? Why not just admit that? nt
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#53
Strange, did you just copy and paste Hack's comment which I just responded to?
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#55
No, I think great minds think alike. Still waiting for you to document your claim, though. nt
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#64
Again, you aren't documenting your claim, but are expecting others to do it for you.
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#75
This is getting ridiculous. Please read the thread as you clearly have not, nor have you
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#186
There's no way he read 491,000 War Logs. That's not even the hundreds of thousands of cables.
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#19
Of course it is. Protecting our war criminals is of primary importance in this society
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#35
What a ridiculous suggestion. Name ONE just ONE Whistle Blower who was protected by
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#188
Partly that but it's mostly to protect the Bush war criminals who were exposed in the
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#15
Hopefully his willingness to admit to lesser charges will get dismissals on the others.
freshwest
Nov 2012
#6
He exposed Bush war crimes. Too bad just about everyone has covered up for Cheney,
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#10
The only way to bring Bush and Cheney to trial would be to have certain conditions on the ground.
freshwest
Nov 2012
#38
Good post. I have only relatively recently discovered the lack of justice for many
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#47
He did expose them legally. He was ignored. Then became a Whistle Blower which he
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#139
Um, no, I did no such thing, I said he used what was legally available to him, he
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#161
The oath he took convicted him. No way to get that job without promising to NOT do what he did.
freshwest
Nov 2012
#41
He could have used the Military Whistleblwoers Protection Act of 1988--but that would not have
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#45
Please post a link to information on just ONE whistle blower who 'received the
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#56
(Facepalm) Sabrina, that you don't know that Ellsburg couldn't have used the
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#76
I'm having a hard time distinguishing you and Hack from each other frankly. Sorry
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#80
Manning could have gone to Kucinich, Sanders, Franken...he went to Assange. That
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#91
Again, kindly cite when and where Manning reported crimes to his superior officers. nt
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#106
You made the assertion Sabrina; it's up to you to prove it. It's not up to the rest of us
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#156
What claim? What are you talking about? I stated the facts of this case as they are known
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#174
You mean 'that's why two of the usual posters are playing the same old games'. I am having
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#138
Irony is not dead. Lol! Maybe you can give a direct response to the question they, and you
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#148
I met Ellsberg at Rice University where he met with students, inspired us to go to D.C.
freshwest
Nov 2012
#109
I hope he didn't crave adulation; I feel he was caught up. I remember when all of these great
freshwest
Nov 2012
#58
Indeed. In exactly the same way that Ellsberg's treachery aided the NVA and NLF. n/t
Smarmie Doofus
Nov 2012
#31
And Ellsburg would have been convicted--had the FBI refrained from wiretapping him. nt
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#36
Um--that's what a guilty plea is. Admitting you were wrong. Think there won't be allocution?
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#50
No, it's admitting that you did something...not that you were wrong TO do it.
Ken Burch
Nov 2012
#62
I have clients who think that way, and they have the rap sheets to prove it.
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#65
Of course you have the right to put conscience before law. What you don't have is right to avoid
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#170
Show one post where I said that the people shouldn't discuss what the Govt. does?
glacierbay
Nov 2012
#126
I agree with you--he's got lots of mitigating factors to be considered in his sentencing. nt
msanthrope
Nov 2012
#159
Oh you're so right about that. 'It's more depressing to want the law to apply
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#142