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In reply to the discussion: Trump tells court he had no duty to 'support' the Constitution as president [View all]hlthe2b
(112,622 posts)22. Laurence Tribe on why this argument is sheer bullshit:
https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/4198350-does-the-constitution-disqualify-trump-from-running-for-president/
One of these drive-by claims is made by former Attorney General Michael Mukasey in a Wall Street Journal opinion piece. He makes the strained argument that Trump cannot be disqualified by Section 3 because the president is not an officer of the United States because he is elected, not appointed. There is nothing in the language of the 14th Amendment that would support this conclusion.
As Tribe points out: If the precise provision (Article II, section 1) of the Constitution that creates the presidency explicitly refers to that position as an Office, then how can the holder of that Office not be an officer of the United States under that very same Constitution? Indeed, Article II of the Constitution refers to the Office of President nine times.
Mukasey cites an 1888 Supreme Court case, involving the princely sum of $83.28, for the proposition that unless a person in the service of the government holds his place by virtue of an appointment he is not strictly speaking an officer of the United States. This case, however, did not involve the Constitution. It did involve an elected official. It did involve a statute providing for reimbursement of travel expenses to certain duly appointed naval officers, but not to the plaintiff, a paymasters clerk.
What Mukasey overlooks is that Trump has already claimed in court that he is or was an officer of the United States, and has even cited case law where he himself removed a civil action to federal court as an elected officer of the U.S.
In his petition for removal in the New York indictment charging falsification of business records in connection with a hush money payment to a porn actress, Trump unsuccessfully sought removal to the federal court. There he alleged he was formerly an officer of the United States and cited law permitting federal-officer removal for elected members of Congress.
There is recent precedent for this disqualification strategy. Couy Griffin was an elected commissioner for Otero County, New Mexico. Turns out he joined in the Jan. 6 insurrection at the Capitol. A group of New Mexico citizens, also supported by CREW, filed an action against Griffin under New Mexico law, seeking his removal from office. The New Mexico district court took evidence, received legal arguments and then concluded that Griffin was disqualified under Section 3.
Of course, the debate assumes that Trump engaged in an insurrection or rebellion on Jan. 6 or aided and abetted those who did. This is a matter that will have to be resolved at a trial. But, as Tribe notes: I think its clear to most people that if Trump doesnt qualify [for that] nobody would. He continues, Its important for the survival of the republic that someone who has shown himself to be an insurrectionist against the Constitution not get another chance to try.
The bottom line: The disqualification argument has legs, and is a serious lawsuit. The president is not an officer of the United States? Apple sauce.
One of these drive-by claims is made by former Attorney General Michael Mukasey in a Wall Street Journal opinion piece. He makes the strained argument that Trump cannot be disqualified by Section 3 because the president is not an officer of the United States because he is elected, not appointed. There is nothing in the language of the 14th Amendment that would support this conclusion.
As Tribe points out: If the precise provision (Article II, section 1) of the Constitution that creates the presidency explicitly refers to that position as an Office, then how can the holder of that Office not be an officer of the United States under that very same Constitution? Indeed, Article II of the Constitution refers to the Office of President nine times.
Mukasey cites an 1888 Supreme Court case, involving the princely sum of $83.28, for the proposition that unless a person in the service of the government holds his place by virtue of an appointment he is not strictly speaking an officer of the United States. This case, however, did not involve the Constitution. It did involve an elected official. It did involve a statute providing for reimbursement of travel expenses to certain duly appointed naval officers, but not to the plaintiff, a paymasters clerk.
What Mukasey overlooks is that Trump has already claimed in court that he is or was an officer of the United States, and has even cited case law where he himself removed a civil action to federal court as an elected officer of the U.S.
In his petition for removal in the New York indictment charging falsification of business records in connection with a hush money payment to a porn actress, Trump unsuccessfully sought removal to the federal court. There he alleged he was formerly an officer of the United States and cited law permitting federal-officer removal for elected members of Congress.
There is recent precedent for this disqualification strategy. Couy Griffin was an elected commissioner for Otero County, New Mexico. Turns out he joined in the Jan. 6 insurrection at the Capitol. A group of New Mexico citizens, also supported by CREW, filed an action against Griffin under New Mexico law, seeking his removal from office. The New Mexico district court took evidence, received legal arguments and then concluded that Griffin was disqualified under Section 3.
Of course, the debate assumes that Trump engaged in an insurrection or rebellion on Jan. 6 or aided and abetted those who did. This is a matter that will have to be resolved at a trial. But, as Tribe notes: I think its clear to most people that if Trump doesnt qualify [for that] nobody would. He continues, Its important for the survival of the republic that someone who has shown himself to be an insurrectionist against the Constitution not get another chance to try.
The bottom line: The disqualification argument has legs, and is a serious lawsuit. The president is not an officer of the United States? Apple sauce.
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Trump tells court he had no duty to 'support' the Constitution as president [View all]
brooklynite
Oct 2023
OP
Trump is a proven liar, he is F*****g delusional, and will say anything to save his own neck.
usaf-vet
Oct 2023
#72
Well, causing an insurrection isn't protecting or defending the constitution
SouthernDem4ever
Oct 2023
#3
Tell me how you can "defend" the Constitution without "supporting" it . . . . .
no_hypocrisy
Oct 2023
#6
tRump basically admitted to attacking the Constitution. You have to support it to preserve it
Bernardo de La Paz
Oct 2023
#10
Rethugs never let a little thing like our Constitution get in the way of a good grift or power grab.
KY_EnviroGuy
Oct 2023
#14
The Presidential oath, which the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment surely knew,
LiberalFighter
Oct 2023
#18
Laurence Tribe wrote in detail with another scholar about this being BS. That indeed the President
hlthe2b
Oct 2023
#21
Which is, I suppose, tantamount to admitting that he did *not* support the Constitution...
malthaussen
Oct 2023
#84
" hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State," CIVIL includes
TeamProg
Oct 2023
#26
This actually seems like a very 'novel' legal argument by some Federalist Society crackpots
ck4829
Oct 2023
#35
Garbage. Of course he's an officer of the US, even by an originalist interpretation.
pnwmom
Oct 2023
#38
Then what was the inaugural OATH OF OFFICE all about. Why bother if the oath words are
ancianita
Oct 2023
#39
In my 40 years as a lawyer, I have heard some silly-ass legal arguments but none to top this.
TomSlick
Oct 2023
#41
After we jail TFG, we'll just have to clarify the fourteenth for the RW with Congressional action.
marble falls
Oct 2023
#47
I will chip in. I would happily eat ramen for the rest of the year if he would just GO
niyad
Oct 2023
#74
He swore an oath to the Constitution, obviously he had no comprehension of what the job entails.
Rhiannon12866
Oct 2023
#51
This is a direct admission that Trump is unable or unwilling to honor his oath of office.
Martin68
Oct 2023
#52
This will go over well in the election ads. No wonder he doesn't want to debate.
C Moon
Oct 2023
#53
There should be ads run on right wing media having him stating this and then have his magaloons
kimbutgar
Oct 2023
#60
So than, as the leader of the domestic terrorist organization MAGA, this means all members
ffr
Oct 2023
#63
That argument right there...that he doesn't believe he has any obligation to "support" the
BComplex
Oct 2023
#86
"Cheer up. Things could be worse". I cheered up. Then I read what he said. It's worse.
Wonder Why
Oct 2023
#87