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Xithras

(16,191 posts)

34. Bantustans have another name more familiar to Americans: Reservations.

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 02:58 PM

Dec 2012

And Israel is following the same script that America and South Africa followed. Forcibly relocate the native population into areas the new nation doesn't want to settle, grant them a bit of autonomy so that the government can disclaim responsibility for their plight, deny them citizenship and the right to vote, and otherwise permanently exclude them from the greater society.

Honestly, the only thing I'm suprised about is that nobody has formally proposed it yet. It's pretty clear that Israel has been slowly building toward this goal for quite some time though. A two state solution really isn't tenable without the expulsion of settlers from the West Bank, and there are now so many of them that it would be political suicide for the Israeli leadership to propose it.

The only remaining options are the wholesale expulsion of the Palestinian population (which would spark a major regional war), the confinement of the Palestinians to reservations/bantustans, or the integration of both populations into a single state. Options 1 & 3 are unlikely for political reasons, so what's left?

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Palestinians: Settlement Expansion Means 1 State [View all] Poll_Blind Dec 2012 OP

Yes, a one state, secular solution. Call it Palestine. Problem solved. on point Dec 2012 #1

So, eliminate Israel? Facinating. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #2

Post removed Post removed Dec 2012 #3

I think the most likely short-term "solution" is a division of land a la what happened in... Poll_Blind Dec 2012 #13

Bantustans have another name more familiar to Americans: Reservations. Xithras Dec 2012 #34

uh "final solution"...really? Ken Burch Dec 2012 #108

I noted that too. Chan790 Dec 2012 #200

Why not call it Late To Dinner? Scootaloo Dec 2012 #4

'Southern Levant'? muriel_volestrangler Dec 2012 #10

or "Debbie". Ken Burch Dec 2012 #113

Because Israel is a religious state that was the mistake in the first place on point Dec 2012 #8

And a Palestinian state won't be? Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #38

The ONLY way to do that is to oppose ALL further settlement expansion. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #70

I oppose all settlements in the West Bank. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #74

Thank you at least for opposing all settlements. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #79

Since Palestinians are not one religion, clearly it won't be Recursion Dec 2012 #154

That's an absurd assuption. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #159

If only there were a multi-religious Arab state, perhaps just north of Israel Recursion Dec 2012 #161

One already exists in Jewish form, it just seems to be offensive to so many. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #163

One of the most ill-informed posts I've seen here in a long time oberliner Dec 2012 #162

Actually, it wasn't so much a religious as an ethnic/cultural state. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #124

Well, when the majority of residents are not Jews, probably not going to be a Jewish state. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #17

So I assume you favor dissolution of all the Islamic states. former9thward Dec 2012 #21

I favor democracy and self-determination. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #27

There shouldn't be any religious-based states. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #81

Ahh no. former9thward Dec 2012 #104

Not the point. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #106

This message was self-deleted by its author Mosby Dec 2012 #147

We'll let you try reading that post again. former9thward Dec 2012 #148

This message was self-deleted by its author Mosby Dec 2012 #151

Sorry for the snark. former9thward Dec 2012 #166

Eliminate America!(1960) Eliminate South Africa!(1980) Ash_F Dec 2012 #22

South Africa didn't get eliminated. But it did have regime change. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #28

Indeed but the right wingers loved to use that argument back then. Ash_F Dec 2012 #30

If current demographic trends persist, by 2050 Israel will have a majority Arab population. (Right coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #189

And yet, that is excatly what the poster to whom I responded believes that. Do you? Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #37

Israel destroyed itself. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #45

Kool-aid. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #51

It is a matter of physical reality that the Israelis setttlements are too entwined geek tragedy Dec 2012 #53

No, it isn't. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #54

I would have preferred a two-state solution. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #55

More kool-aid, so since I don't have a coupon. I am not buying this anymore. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #57

No, you're drinking the "the country dominated by pro-settler poltiical parties geek tragedy Dec 2012 #61

My concern is representation, equality and the pursuit of liberty. Ash_F Dec 2012 #47

Fine...within Israel. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #52

Two-state solution is a fantasy. Netanyahu has always held contempt for the idea, geek tragedy Dec 2012 #56

I do support a two state solution, for now. See my posts to Hack89 in this thread for elaboration. Ash_F Dec 2012 #58

That's good to hear. I will look at your other posts. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #59

so why was recognition of Israel and it's right to exist good enough in 1993 but not now azurnoir Dec 2012 #67

Which has nothing to do with my post. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #75

so your post had nothing to do with Israel being the Jewish State? n/t azurnoir Dec 2012 #77

A Jewish homeland, the nature of Israel. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #80

ah but I never said the Jews can not have a national homeland azurnoir Dec 2012 #83

Then it was pointless as that was not the topic of discussion. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #84

I asked you question that it seems you are unwilling answer azurnoir Dec 2012 #88

It has nothing to do with DU'ers which is why your absurd strawman was ignored. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #90

lol so now you throw in another crimson Clupeidae? azurnoir Dec 2012 #94

This message was self-deleted by its author Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #97

How about "Israel-Palestine"? That way, everybody's represented? Ken Burch Dec 2012 #69

How about two separate states? Why is that so offensive? Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #78

It's not offensive to me...but most Palestinians AREN'T trying to get rid of Israel any more. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #85

Then perhaps you should also point your attention at those calling for Israel's removal. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #89

The subthread with you two was just a discussion of the name of a country. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #93

No, it wasn't. Don't insult me. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #95

Why DIDN'T I confront him, then? Ken Burch Dec 2012 #99

On point does not. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #100

UH...what? Ken Burch Dec 2012 #101

Are you sure you were following this sub-thread? On point is the one to whom I asked the question! Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #102

Oh, sorry. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #105

Because the settlements have made that impossible Recursion Dec 2012 #155

According to you and the propaganda you are reading and peddling. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #160

No, South Africa wasn't "gotten rid of" either Recursion Dec 2012 #168

But, it is still a false analogy. Too bad you can't see it. Carry on. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #170

What a stunning refutation! "It's a false analogy". If you have an argument, make it. Recursion Dec 2012 #172

Israel and South Africa are countries. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #173

You are factually wrong on that: the bantustans were by protocol separate countries Recursion Dec 2012 #174

Your claim that the Palestinians are trying to destroy Israel cpwm17 Dec 2012 #175

Why does the first map say "Jewish land"? oberliner Dec 2012 #179

Because there was no "Israel" in 1946 or 1947? Recursion Dec 2012 #184

Exactly oberliner Dec 2012 #185

It was British land at that point (nt) Recursion Dec 2012 #190

Yeah oberliner Dec 2012 #191

I'd agree the first panel is somewhat misleading Recursion Dec 2012 #192

This message was self-deleted by its author cpwm17 Dec 2012 #195

These maps make their point cpwm17 Dec 2012 #194

They do indeed oberliner Dec 2012 #196

You can't rightfully create a country for one group on somebody else's land cpwm17 Dec 2012 #198

Alrighty oberliner Dec 2012 #201

This message was self-deleted by its author Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #182

No more than South Africa was eliminated. Recursion Dec 2012 #164

False anaology. But, I am betting you already knew this, given where your other posts are. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #165

Support? No. But there *will* be one state, Israel has seen to that Recursion Dec 2012 #167

Surprising. But, no, your "analysis" is nothing but run-of-the-mill propaganda. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #169

It announces the similarity of a European colonial population controlling a native majority, sure Recursion Dec 2012 #171

European? oberliner Dec 2012 #181

I'm not sure what you're asking. The Ashkenazim are Europeans Recursion Dec 2012 #183

Jewish Palestinians? oberliner Dec 2012 #186

Jewish people whose families have lived in Palestine for millenia Recursion Dec 2012 #187

Most of the Mizrahim are from neighboring Arab countries oberliner Dec 2012 #188

Problem solved? sellitman Dec 2012 #6

Native Americans can at least vote for their congressman today. Ash_F Dec 2012 #29

so are Native American not allowed to live in White settlements are Native Americans not US citizens azurnoir Dec 2012 #68

Arabs have more rights in Israel than in other Arab Nations. sellitman Dec 2012 #120

why is it that Israelli Arabs are always compared to Arabs in other countries? azurnoir Dec 2012 #121

Because sellitman Dec 2012 #130

That's a good question cpwm17 Dec 2012 #131

I understand your post sellitman Dec 2012 #134

History has show that it is Israel that doesn't recognize the Palestinians' right to exist cpwm17 Dec 2012 #142

again do you compare American Blacks standard of living to White America or Blacks in African azurnoir Dec 2012 #135

Why do you think Hamas will support a secular state? tn hack89 Dec 2012 #11

What do you support? Ash_F Dec 2012 #26

I support a two state solution with the dismantling of the settlements. nt hack89 Dec 2012 #33

I think that is a reasonable short term solution. Ash_F Dec 2012 #40

so lets look at the logistics of that azurnoir Dec 2012 #41

They say they are willing to try hack89 Dec 2012 #43

who says they're to try Israeli's ? rrrright that;s why they keep expanding the settlements azurnoir Dec 2012 #44

Time will tell hack89 Dec 2012 #48

"all it takes is one generation" (settler) Girls at War azurnoir Dec 2012 #49

You highlight the difficulty of finding a solution. hack89 Dec 2012 #50

" any doubt they have counterparts on the Palestinian side?" azurnoir Dec 2012 #60

My point is that there are extremists on both sides hack89 Dec 2012 #62

Palestinians wanting to live anywhere in the West Bank which is now recognized as Palestine azurnoir Dec 2012 #64

Gaza is part of Palestine hack89 Dec 2012 #65

ah I was waiting for you pull that one out Gaza azurnoir Dec 2012 #66

So are you saying that Palestine should be absolved of the responsiblities hack89 Dec 2012 #73

so you are saying that the PLO/PA is responsible for what Hamas a different goverment does? azurnoir Dec 2012 #82

So Palestine is not really a country? hack89 Dec 2012 #91

as of right now the country of Palestine is under 2 different governments azurnoir Dec 2012 #92

So Israel is to negotiate separately with each part of Palestine? hack89 Dec 2012 #96

at this point Israel refuses to speak with Hamas azurnoir Dec 2012 #98

I didn't realize the great power I hold. hack89 Dec 2012 #107

Abbas has said he's willing to negotiate n/t azurnoir Dec 2012 #111

But will Hamas agree to any deal brokered by Abbas? hack89 Dec 2012 #116

Really it does not matter at this point in time n/t azurnoir Dec 2012 #122

Nothing can be done until the Hamas problem is solved hack89 Dec 2012 #128

Tell that to the UN azurnoir Dec 2012 #136

That makes it even more imperative hack89 Dec 2012 #137

A majority of Knesset seats are held by pro-settler parties. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #46

with land swaps only around 50K settlers will need to relocate Mosby Dec 2012 #149

so 300,000 Israelis and their IDF protectors will remain in the West Bank? azurnoir Dec 2012 #152

all those settlers live a mile or two from the green line Mosby Dec 2012 #156

again 300,000 Israeli's and their IDF protectors will remain in a Palestinian state azurnoir Dec 2012 #157

Problem is DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #63

This message was self-deleted by its author Mosby Dec 2012 #150

if he is one, he is a fool DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #193

This message was self-deleted by its author Mosby Dec 2012 #197

in other words DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #199

This message was self-deleted by its author Mosby Dec 2012 #202

except none of the parties will accept it. cali Dec 2012 #129

I think John2 Dec 2012 #5

I see no problem if Israeli settlers live under a Palestinian government. TahitiNut Dec 2012 #7

I thought Jews were God's special people so they can do whatever the hell they want to. Maineman Dec 2012 #9

So you believe the U.S. should not support Islamic, Buddhist or Hindu states? former9thward Dec 2012 #23

the US supports plenty of Islamic states dlwickham Dec 2012 #24

The poster I replied to said the U.S. should not support religious based states such as Israel. former9thward Dec 2012 #31

Religious based state is a lot less offensive if a majority of the population geek tragedy Dec 2012 #32

The UN mandate set Israel up as a Jewish state. former9thward Dec 2012 #36

Then it will be an apartheid regime that will earn its place in the history books next to geek tragedy Dec 2012 #39

Since you are interested in history maybe you could include a couple facts. former9thward Dec 2012 #76

Well, Israel has made an Arab state a physical impossibility geek tragedy Dec 2012 #87

Again you turn history on its head. former9thward Dec 2012 #103

Who forced the Israelis to build settlements throughout the West Bank? nt geek tragedy Dec 2012 #109

Maybe the same thing that forced the U.S. to expand beyond the Atlantic coast. former9thward Dec 2012 #117

Oy, so you're a supporter of settlement expansion. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #119

LOL former9thward Dec 2012 #133

the Native Americans were given the right to vote dlwickham Dec 2012 #140

As usual, an Israel supporter gets reality exactly backwards cpwm17 Dec 2012 #110

A complete fabrication. former9thward Dec 2012 #115

Here's the Wikipedia version of the Palestinians' expulsion: cpwm17 Dec 2012 #118

Let's see what Wiki says about its own article: former9thward Dec 2012 #132

You are denying objective reality n/t cpwm17 Dec 2012 #143

The PA recognized Israel in 1994, so you can't say "The Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel" Ken Burch Dec 2012 #112

Try again. former9thward Dec 2012 #114

why do you have to bring facts into this discussion dlwickham Dec 2012 #139

The UN used the terms Jewish State and Arab State to differenciate azurnoir Dec 2012 #42

Absolutely false. former9thward Dec 2012 #72

ah but that is not what I said is it ? n/t azurnoir Dec 2012 #86

One State, the inevitable and fairest end at this point n/t Catherina Dec 2012 #12

Yes. A two-state solution is obvious. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #14

True, Sir: Admonishment Is Needed To Both Sides The Magistrate Dec 2012 #16

We are past the point of present-day admonishments. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #19

It is the Palestinians' unwillingness to agree to specific borders that is establishing JDPriestly Dec 2012 #123

The only offers Israel have been to willing consider are offers which dissect the West Bank- Douglas Carpenter Dec 2012 #125

The Israelis aren't willing to end the occupation or relinquish the cancerous settlements. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #126

The Israelis have destroyed settlements in the past. They certainly could do it again. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #141

In Point Of Fact, Sir The Magistrate Dec 2012 #127

England and Ireland libodem Dec 2012 #15

The policy on the Israeli side is to make a solution impossible. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #20

and we saw how well that worked out for however many years dlwickham Dec 2012 #25

England and Ireland... Xithras Dec 2012 #35

I've advocated the big circle theory before libodem Dec 2012 #71

The UN tried that after 48 Recursion Dec 2012 #158

Yesterday libodem Dec 2012 #176

That's an important myth to quash. There really wasn't tension until the 20th century Recursion Dec 2012 #177

Id always thought about 1948 libodem Dec 2012 #178

You truly have no clue oberliner Dec 2012 #180

Israelis are deep in denial that Zionism and democracy are headed for a divorce. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #18

Uglier and uglier... Blue_Tires Dec 2012 #138

OMG! THE SKY IS FALLING!! EVERYWON PANIC!!! Fozzledick Dec 2012 #144

Then cool � you're for a "one-state solution" cpwm17 Dec 2012 #145

I doubted I'd get any replies way down here but I just had to get it out. Fozzledick Dec 2012 #146

This message was self-deleted by its author polly7 Dec 2012 #153