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Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)

125. The only offers Israel have been to willing consider are offers which dissect the West Bank-

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 03:09 AM

Dec 2012

makes access to East Jerusalem difficult or impossible and leave Israel in control of all movement.

" In the end, he said, “there is no Palestinian state, even though the Israelis speak of one.” Instead, he said, “there will be a settler state and a Palestinian built-up area, divided into three sectors, cut by fingers of Israeli settlement and connected only by narrow roads."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/world/middleeast/11road.html?_r=7&pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=22948d4799a34065&ex=1187496000&emc=eta1&oref=

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/728a69d4-12b1-11dc-a475-000b5df10621,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F728a69d4-12b1-11dc-a475-000b5df10621.html%3Fnclick_check%3D1&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fdiscuss%2Fdu

There are approximately 450,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, (*now closer to 500,000) including East Jerusalem. According to B'tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights, " the built-up area of the settlements in the West Bank covers 1.7 percent of the West Bank, the settlements control 41.9 percent of the entire West Bank".* http://www.btselem.org/English/Maps/Index.asp

As appears from the map, while the built-up area of the settlements in the West Bank covers 1.7 percent of the West Bank, the settlements control 41.9 percent of the entire West Bank.
full PDF map: http://www.btselem.org/Download/Settlements_Map_Eng.pdf

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Palestinians: Settlement Expansion Means 1 State [View all] Poll_Blind Dec 2012 OP

Yes, a one state, secular solution. Call it Palestine. Problem solved. on point Dec 2012 #1

So, eliminate Israel? Facinating. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #2

Post removed Post removed Dec 2012 #3

I think the most likely short-term "solution" is a division of land a la what happened in... Poll_Blind Dec 2012 #13

Bantustans have another name more familiar to Americans: Reservations. Xithras Dec 2012 #34

uh "final solution"...really? Ken Burch Dec 2012 #108

I noted that too. Chan790 Dec 2012 #200

Why not call it Late To Dinner? Scootaloo Dec 2012 #4

'Southern Levant'? muriel_volestrangler Dec 2012 #10

or "Debbie". Ken Burch Dec 2012 #113

Because Israel is a religious state that was the mistake in the first place on point Dec 2012 #8

And a Palestinian state won't be? Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #38

The ONLY way to do that is to oppose ALL further settlement expansion. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #70

I oppose all settlements in the West Bank. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #74

Thank you at least for opposing all settlements. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #79

Since Palestinians are not one religion, clearly it won't be Recursion Dec 2012 #154

That's an absurd assuption. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #159

If only there were a multi-religious Arab state, perhaps just north of Israel Recursion Dec 2012 #161

One already exists in Jewish form, it just seems to be offensive to so many. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #163

One of the most ill-informed posts I've seen here in a long time oberliner Dec 2012 #162

Actually, it wasn't so much a religious as an ethnic/cultural state. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #124

Well, when the majority of residents are not Jews, probably not going to be a Jewish state. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #17

So I assume you favor dissolution of all the Islamic states. former9thward Dec 2012 #21

I favor democracy and self-determination. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #27

There shouldn't be any religious-based states. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #81

Ahh no. former9thward Dec 2012 #104

Not the point. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #106

This message was self-deleted by its author Mosby Dec 2012 #147

We'll let you try reading that post again. former9thward Dec 2012 #148

This message was self-deleted by its author Mosby Dec 2012 #151

Sorry for the snark. former9thward Dec 2012 #166

Eliminate America!(1960) Eliminate South Africa!(1980) Ash_F Dec 2012 #22

South Africa didn't get eliminated. But it did have regime change. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #28

Indeed but the right wingers loved to use that argument back then. Ash_F Dec 2012 #30

If current demographic trends persist, by 2050 Israel will have a majority Arab population. (Right coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #189

And yet, that is excatly what the poster to whom I responded believes that. Do you? Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #37

Israel destroyed itself. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #45

Kool-aid. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #51

It is a matter of physical reality that the Israelis setttlements are too entwined geek tragedy Dec 2012 #53

No, it isn't. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #54

I would have preferred a two-state solution. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #55

More kool-aid, so since I don't have a coupon. I am not buying this anymore. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #57

No, you're drinking the "the country dominated by pro-settler poltiical parties geek tragedy Dec 2012 #61

My concern is representation, equality and the pursuit of liberty. Ash_F Dec 2012 #47

Fine...within Israel. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #52

Two-state solution is a fantasy. Netanyahu has always held contempt for the idea, geek tragedy Dec 2012 #56

I do support a two state solution, for now. See my posts to Hack89 in this thread for elaboration. Ash_F Dec 2012 #58

That's good to hear. I will look at your other posts. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #59

so why was recognition of Israel and it's right to exist good enough in 1993 but not now azurnoir Dec 2012 #67

Which has nothing to do with my post. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #75

so your post had nothing to do with Israel being the Jewish State? n/t azurnoir Dec 2012 #77

A Jewish homeland, the nature of Israel. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #80

ah but I never said the Jews can not have a national homeland azurnoir Dec 2012 #83

Then it was pointless as that was not the topic of discussion. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #84

I asked you question that it seems you are unwilling answer azurnoir Dec 2012 #88

It has nothing to do with DU'ers which is why your absurd strawman was ignored. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #90

lol so now you throw in another crimson Clupeidae? azurnoir Dec 2012 #94

This message was self-deleted by its author Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #97

How about "Israel-Palestine"? That way, everybody's represented? Ken Burch Dec 2012 #69

How about two separate states? Why is that so offensive? Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #78

It's not offensive to me...but most Palestinians AREN'T trying to get rid of Israel any more. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #85

Then perhaps you should also point your attention at those calling for Israel's removal. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #89

The subthread with you two was just a discussion of the name of a country. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #93

No, it wasn't. Don't insult me. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #95

Why DIDN'T I confront him, then? Ken Burch Dec 2012 #99

On point does not. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #100

UH...what? Ken Burch Dec 2012 #101

Are you sure you were following this sub-thread? On point is the one to whom I asked the question! Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #102

Oh, sorry. Ken Burch Dec 2012 #105

Because the settlements have made that impossible Recursion Dec 2012 #155

According to you and the propaganda you are reading and peddling. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #160

No, South Africa wasn't "gotten rid of" either Recursion Dec 2012 #168

But, it is still a false analogy. Too bad you can't see it. Carry on. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #170

What a stunning refutation! "It's a false analogy". If you have an argument, make it. Recursion Dec 2012 #172

Israel and South Africa are countries. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #173

You are factually wrong on that: the bantustans were by protocol separate countries Recursion Dec 2012 #174

Your claim that the Palestinians are trying to destroy Israel cpwm17 Dec 2012 #175

Why does the first map say "Jewish land"? oberliner Dec 2012 #179

Because there was no "Israel" in 1946 or 1947? Recursion Dec 2012 #184

Exactly oberliner Dec 2012 #185

It was British land at that point (nt) Recursion Dec 2012 #190

Yeah oberliner Dec 2012 #191

I'd agree the first panel is somewhat misleading Recursion Dec 2012 #192

This message was self-deleted by its author cpwm17 Dec 2012 #195

These maps make their point cpwm17 Dec 2012 #194

They do indeed oberliner Dec 2012 #196

You can't rightfully create a country for one group on somebody else's land cpwm17 Dec 2012 #198

Alrighty oberliner Dec 2012 #201

This message was self-deleted by its author Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #182

No more than South Africa was eliminated. Recursion Dec 2012 #164

False anaology. But, I am betting you already knew this, given where your other posts are. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #165

Support? No. But there *will* be one state, Israel has seen to that Recursion Dec 2012 #167

Surprising. But, no, your "analysis" is nothing but run-of-the-mill propaganda. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #169

It announces the similarity of a European colonial population controlling a native majority, sure Recursion Dec 2012 #171

European? oberliner Dec 2012 #181

I'm not sure what you're asking. The Ashkenazim are Europeans Recursion Dec 2012 #183

Jewish Palestinians? oberliner Dec 2012 #186

Jewish people whose families have lived in Palestine for millenia Recursion Dec 2012 #187

Most of the Mizrahim are from neighboring Arab countries oberliner Dec 2012 #188

Problem solved? sellitman Dec 2012 #6

Native Americans can at least vote for their congressman today. Ash_F Dec 2012 #29

so are Native American not allowed to live in White settlements are Native Americans not US citizens azurnoir Dec 2012 #68

Arabs have more rights in Israel than in other Arab Nations. sellitman Dec 2012 #120

why is it that Israelli Arabs are always compared to Arabs in other countries? azurnoir Dec 2012 #121

Because sellitman Dec 2012 #130

That's a good question cpwm17 Dec 2012 #131

I understand your post sellitman Dec 2012 #134

History has show that it is Israel that doesn't recognize the Palestinians' right to exist cpwm17 Dec 2012 #142

again do you compare American Blacks standard of living to White America or Blacks in African azurnoir Dec 2012 #135

Why do you think Hamas will support a secular state? tn hack89 Dec 2012 #11

What do you support? Ash_F Dec 2012 #26

I support a two state solution with the dismantling of the settlements. nt hack89 Dec 2012 #33

I think that is a reasonable short term solution. Ash_F Dec 2012 #40

so lets look at the logistics of that azurnoir Dec 2012 #41

They say they are willing to try hack89 Dec 2012 #43

who says they're to try Israeli's ? rrrright that;s why they keep expanding the settlements azurnoir Dec 2012 #44

Time will tell hack89 Dec 2012 #48

"all it takes is one generation" (settler) Girls at War azurnoir Dec 2012 #49

You highlight the difficulty of finding a solution. hack89 Dec 2012 #50

" any doubt they have counterparts on the Palestinian side?" azurnoir Dec 2012 #60

My point is that there are extremists on both sides hack89 Dec 2012 #62

Palestinians wanting to live anywhere in the West Bank which is now recognized as Palestine azurnoir Dec 2012 #64

Gaza is part of Palestine hack89 Dec 2012 #65

ah I was waiting for you pull that one out Gaza azurnoir Dec 2012 #66

So are you saying that Palestine should be absolved of the responsiblities hack89 Dec 2012 #73

so you are saying that the PLO/PA is responsible for what Hamas a different goverment does? azurnoir Dec 2012 #82

So Palestine is not really a country? hack89 Dec 2012 #91

as of right now the country of Palestine is under 2 different governments azurnoir Dec 2012 #92

So Israel is to negotiate separately with each part of Palestine? hack89 Dec 2012 #96

at this point Israel refuses to speak with Hamas azurnoir Dec 2012 #98

I didn't realize the great power I hold. hack89 Dec 2012 #107

Abbas has said he's willing to negotiate n/t azurnoir Dec 2012 #111

But will Hamas agree to any deal brokered by Abbas? hack89 Dec 2012 #116

Really it does not matter at this point in time n/t azurnoir Dec 2012 #122

Nothing can be done until the Hamas problem is solved hack89 Dec 2012 #128

Tell that to the UN azurnoir Dec 2012 #136

That makes it even more imperative hack89 Dec 2012 #137

A majority of Knesset seats are held by pro-settler parties. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #46

with land swaps only around 50K settlers will need to relocate Mosby Dec 2012 #149

so 300,000 Israelis and their IDF protectors will remain in the West Bank? azurnoir Dec 2012 #152

all those settlers live a mile or two from the green line Mosby Dec 2012 #156

again 300,000 Israeli's and their IDF protectors will remain in a Palestinian state azurnoir Dec 2012 #157

Problem is DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #63

This message was self-deleted by its author Mosby Dec 2012 #150

if he is one, he is a fool DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #193

This message was self-deleted by its author Mosby Dec 2012 #197

in other words DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #199

This message was self-deleted by its author Mosby Dec 2012 #202

except none of the parties will accept it. cali Dec 2012 #129

I think John2 Dec 2012 #5

I see no problem if Israeli settlers live under a Palestinian government. TahitiNut Dec 2012 #7

I thought Jews were God's special people so they can do whatever the hell they want to. Maineman Dec 2012 #9

So you believe the U.S. should not support Islamic, Buddhist or Hindu states? former9thward Dec 2012 #23

the US supports plenty of Islamic states dlwickham Dec 2012 #24

The poster I replied to said the U.S. should not support religious based states such as Israel. former9thward Dec 2012 #31

Religious based state is a lot less offensive if a majority of the population geek tragedy Dec 2012 #32

The UN mandate set Israel up as a Jewish state. former9thward Dec 2012 #36

Then it will be an apartheid regime that will earn its place in the history books next to geek tragedy Dec 2012 #39

Since you are interested in history maybe you could include a couple facts. former9thward Dec 2012 #76

Well, Israel has made an Arab state a physical impossibility geek tragedy Dec 2012 #87

Again you turn history on its head. former9thward Dec 2012 #103

Who forced the Israelis to build settlements throughout the West Bank? nt geek tragedy Dec 2012 #109

Maybe the same thing that forced the U.S. to expand beyond the Atlantic coast. former9thward Dec 2012 #117

Oy, so you're a supporter of settlement expansion. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #119

LOL former9thward Dec 2012 #133

the Native Americans were given the right to vote dlwickham Dec 2012 #140

As usual, an Israel supporter gets reality exactly backwards cpwm17 Dec 2012 #110

A complete fabrication. former9thward Dec 2012 #115

Here's the Wikipedia version of the Palestinians' expulsion: cpwm17 Dec 2012 #118

Let's see what Wiki says about its own article: former9thward Dec 2012 #132

You are denying objective reality n/t cpwm17 Dec 2012 #143

The PA recognized Israel in 1994, so you can't say "The Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel" Ken Burch Dec 2012 #112

Try again. former9thward Dec 2012 #114

why do you have to bring facts into this discussion dlwickham Dec 2012 #139

The UN used the terms Jewish State and Arab State to differenciate azurnoir Dec 2012 #42

Absolutely false. former9thward Dec 2012 #72

ah but that is not what I said is it ? n/t azurnoir Dec 2012 #86

One State, the inevitable and fairest end at this point n/t Catherina Dec 2012 #12

Yes. A two-state solution is obvious. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #14

True, Sir: Admonishment Is Needed To Both Sides The Magistrate Dec 2012 #16

We are past the point of present-day admonishments. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #19

It is the Palestinians' unwillingness to agree to specific borders that is establishing JDPriestly Dec 2012 #123

The only offers Israel have been to willing consider are offers which dissect the West Bank- Douglas Carpenter Dec 2012 #125

The Israelis aren't willing to end the occupation or relinquish the cancerous settlements. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #126

The Israelis have destroyed settlements in the past. They certainly could do it again. JDPriestly Dec 2012 #141

In Point Of Fact, Sir The Magistrate Dec 2012 #127

England and Ireland libodem Dec 2012 #15

The policy on the Israeli side is to make a solution impossible. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #20

and we saw how well that worked out for however many years dlwickham Dec 2012 #25

England and Ireland... Xithras Dec 2012 #35

I've advocated the big circle theory before libodem Dec 2012 #71

The UN tried that after 48 Recursion Dec 2012 #158

Yesterday libodem Dec 2012 #176

That's an important myth to quash. There really wasn't tension until the 20th century Recursion Dec 2012 #177

Id always thought about 1948 libodem Dec 2012 #178

You truly have no clue oberliner Dec 2012 #180

Israelis are deep in denial that Zionism and democracy are headed for a divorce. geek tragedy Dec 2012 #18

Uglier and uglier... Blue_Tires Dec 2012 #138

OMG! THE SKY IS FALLING!! EVERYWON PANIC!!! Fozzledick Dec 2012 #144

Then cool � you're for a "one-state solution" cpwm17 Dec 2012 #145

I doubted I'd get any replies way down here but I just had to get it out. Fozzledick Dec 2012 #146

This message was self-deleted by its author polly7 Dec 2012 #153