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RiverNoord

(1,150 posts)
71. Sorry - I wrote it when I was pretty tired. Here's what I mean...
Sun Jan 27, 2013, 03:21 PM
Jan 2013

But first, the concept that mental health professionals (very few of them are doctors), should report people they conclude might be, for a period of time, a danger to themselves or others, to any kind of authority maintaining a central national or state database, is hopelessly flawed. Currently, ethics rules normally allow a practitioner to voluntarily notify law enforcement or other parties (it's usually an emergency contact first, if the person provided one, which is often required by the practitioner) under such circumstances. The matter seldom escalates beyond the notification of the emergency contact, but sometimes there will be police involvement, leading to likely police reports, and, if the situation is really a mess, emergency involuntary commitment, perhaps an arrest, and/or charges and prosecution.

The thing is, mental health practitioners generally consider themselves professionals, and most are also in private practice in one way or another, making them businesspeople as well. The entire point of confidentiality, a critical cornerstone of all medical and (especially) mental health practice, is enabling the parties to trust practitioners with information they would not wish to become public, so that the practitioners may have access to potentially intimate information necessary for them to do their jobs. A 'national database notice' would have to be on the first paperwork filled out by anyone seeking medical or mental health services, ensuring that vast numbers of people would simply turn away immediately from mental health practitioners. Most who seek mental health services are very sensitive about sharing with anyone, including the mental health practitioner, information about why they are seeking mental health services to begin with. The idea that they might end up in a 'national database of loonies' would guarantee that many if not most would simply turn away rather than trust that the particular practitioner's judgment of what constitutes a genuine 'risk to themselves or others.' The bottom line is, the whole thing wouldn't work - not with any permutation or adjustment or safeguards that might be devised. The delivery of mental health services in the country would collapse, and the very people who should be seeking help to prevent mental health-related violence never would.

Now - what I was trying to say in my previous post is this:

Almost everyone can agree with a simple statement such as this: Mentally ill people should not have easy access to guns.

The statement is simple - but actually keeping guns out of the hands of 'mentally ill' people is virtually impossible, so long as guns are readily and easily acquired throughout society in general.

The experience of agreeing to such a statement provides many people with a sense that they, in some way, are contributing to a solution to the problems of gun violence. After all, if enough people are discussing the issue, doesn't that mean that something will probably get done about it? Obviously, to massacre a whole bunch of people, especially children, you've got to be mentally ill, right? (Would the person have actually met any criterion for a proper diagnosis of a particular mental health disorder? - well, let's not get bogged down in that sort of stuff - they were obviously nuts - the after the fact reality of the situation proves it.)

So... Gun violence is pretty bad in our society, and the really bad stuff is obviously done by people who are mentally ill, right. So if we just keep guns away from mentally ill people, the really bad stuff won't happen. Problem solved - no more need to deal with stuff we can't agree on, such as the legal proliferation of semi- or full- automatic weapons with extremely high-capacity magazines that can turn a single person into a death machine.

So - the bottom line of my argument is simple - it's easy to get distracted from a difficult question by the promise of an easy answer. Hell, it's American politics 101 - we don't talk about real resolutions to problems, which might be inconvenient to the wealthy interests that really run the show, or to people in general (if global warming is really a serious problem, then we should do something about it! Huh? What do you mean that I should take a bus across town instead of just getting in my car? Who are you to tell me what should and shouldn't do? It's my car and I'm going to drive it - in fact, I'll drive it even more because you told me I shouldn't!) Instead we just have a bunch of people yelling at each other about how the problem is really the fault of this or that party on the 'other side.' Real solutions to issues such as gun violence are messy and difficult (reducing gun violence simply boils down to having way fewer guns around, meaning effective prohibitions on sales/purchases of lots of guns, which is a very, very messy matter indeed).

Hope that clarifies what I meant .

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Helping the GOP Turbineguy Jan 2013 #1
Look at the Senate Dems up for reelection in 2014 hack89 Jan 2013 #2
Especially if the bill is only going to die in the House anyway Freddie Stubbs Jan 2013 #3
Strongly agree. Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #4
It's all fluff because no one stands up for anything anymore anyway (say that three times fast). Drunken Irishman Jan 2013 #6
It's fluff because the AWB only changes the cosemtics SpartanDem Jan 2013 #10
It doesn't matter what the AWB does... Drunken Irishman Jan 2013 #19
Okay, that's a fair point. Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #24
I think it's symbolic of a larger problem. Drunken Irishman Jan 2013 #32
And the rightward march because none have the balls to stand up against anyone and say RKP5637 Jan 2013 #53
You guys are hilarious pscot Jan 2013 #27
Tomorrow, I tell ya! We'll pass that librul agenda! Tomorrow! chimpymustgo Jan 2013 #40
After Reid's capitulation on filibuster reform, I'm inclined to agree n/t markpkessinger Jan 2013 #47
They handed it to them yesterday ... earthside Jan 2013 #29
Can't Do Anything LeFleur1 Jan 2013 #36
Congress, I give them about a 2 percent approval rating and that is being kind. n/t RKP5637 Jan 2013 #54
If they actually gave a tinker's damn about THE PEOPLE they would vote for the gun ban, kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #77
Gun owners are THE PEOPLE too hack89 Jan 2013 #83
Gun nutters are a tiny minority. They just have big fat mouths kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #90
And there is the large group of responsible gun owners hack89 Jan 2013 #91
As evidenced by the near certain failure of passing an AWB nick of time Jan 2013 #92
Still.. WTH! WTH good are Assualt Weapons like the one that Cha Jan 2013 #5
I use mine on my farm to shoot coyotes that go after my chickens and ducks. nick of time Jan 2013 #8
When you shoot at coyotes, how many have you seen attacking as a pack? JustABozoOnThisBus Jan 2013 #37
The most I've ever seen together is 2 nick of time Jan 2013 #50
I think there's pretty broad agreement on limiting magazine sizes here Recursion Jan 2013 #85
Post removed Post removed Jan 2013 #49
Stop spreading lies jberryhill Jan 2013 #51
Correct a semi-automatic rifle Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #57
Do you pack a gun when off the farm? Hoyt Jan 2013 #79
No. nick of time Jan 2013 #87
Why would anyone? Hoyt Jan 2013 #88
There's lots of reasons, nick of time Jan 2013 #89
Not surprising...can DU GD put a "pin" on a thread used solely for listings and comments on libdem4life Jan 2013 #7
Just goes to show you.... SIBIndi Jan 2013 #9
Nope, they also give a damn about $$$$$ in their back pockets, their inflated egos and RKP5637 Jan 2013 #56
It depends on the courage of Americans Lesmoderesstupides Jan 2013 #11
Especially the ones in Congress. nt bemildred Jan 2013 #12
Let's just hand control over to the repukes. nick of time Jan 2013 #13
Those who are against an assult weapons bans are also against Lesmoderesstupides Jan 2013 #15
Not true. nick of time Jan 2013 #20
You must have miised the news a few years ago about the ACA and what certain Senate Dems were doing Lesmoderesstupides Jan 2013 #23
They were voting what their constituents want. nick of time Jan 2013 #25
the "voting what their constituents want" excuse went out the door.. frylock Jan 2013 #30
IWR? nick of time Jan 2013 #33
iraq war resolution.. frylock Jan 2013 #34
You've got a good point there. nick of time Jan 2013 #35
Of course not, they rotate responsibility for blocking progress Fumesucker Jan 2013 #43
Absolutely not true- n/t forthemiddle Jan 2013 #69
Boo-Hissss!!! Senate is FUBAR w/out meaningful filibuster reform. 99th_Monkey Jan 2013 #14
It's not even a true ban. nick of time Jan 2013 #17
Gee, what a surprise NV Whino Jan 2013 #16
The blueification of the country will eventually overcome. onehandle Jan 2013 #18
The problem is though would any such ban survive a SCOTUS challenge? cstanleytech Jan 2013 #21
That's a damn good sensible approach. nick of time Jan 2013 #22
there are still some spineless democrats samsingh Jan 2013 #26
It's only the beginning. This takes awhile. upaloopa Jan 2013 #28
And in a few months, no one will be talking about it at all davidn3600 Jan 2013 #62
until the next slaughter, and then they'll talk again until they conveniently "forget" wordpix Jan 2013 #64
Cowards will never do the right thing. Lint Head Jan 2013 #31
You know, maybe it IS time to move on demwing Jan 2013 #38
Canada would be the closest choice or any country in Western Europe Lesmoderesstupides Jan 2013 #44
Giving Up Again, Are We? Paladin Jan 2013 #39
That is part of the point hp6 Jan 2013 #41
Some kind of 'national database' for the 'mentally ill' is absurd and would be a remarkable setback RiverNoord Jan 2013 #61
THe NICS database already has provisions for the mentally ill Lurks Often Jan 2013 #65
deemed incompetent or committed to a mental hospital involuntarily is radically RiverNoord Jan 2013 #67
I'm not sure I fully follow your second paragraph Lurks Often Jan 2013 #70
Sorry - I wrote it when I was pretty tired. Here's what I mean... RiverNoord Jan 2013 #71
It does and here are my responses: Lurks Often Jan 2013 #72
A temporary list is a permanent list... RiverNoord Jan 2013 #73
My response: Lurks Often Jan 2013 #75
I agree that group punishment for the acts of a few... RiverNoord Jan 2013 #80
No we shouldn't let people drink and drive Lurks Often Jan 2013 #82
Agreed geomon666 Jan 2013 #42
Here are the 6 Iwillnevergiveup Jan 2013 #45
What part of "pro-gun states" do you not understand? Freddie Stubbs Jan 2013 #46
Agreed- but remember, you're fighting against the 'false consensus effect': friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #48
these Democrats should inform their constituents about the difference between wordpix Jan 2013 #58
is this a hunting rifle? Duckhunter935 Jan 2013 #78
No, the problem is that the base imagines there is a difference, when there isn't Recursion Jan 2013 #86
Disappointed that Hagan is absent from this list. appal_jack Jan 2013 #60
Hey, why don't we just give everyone/anyone their own personal nuke and be done with it all! RKP5637 Jan 2013 #52
I really, really dislike Republican politicians, so if we are going to risk seats, ZombieHorde Jan 2013 #55
So ineffective pablum might not be passed after all? krispos42 Jan 2013 #59
Electing more progressives in 2012 got us no where davidpdx Jan 2013 #63
Uhh, ObamaCare? (Just kidding.) alp227 Jan 2013 #66
Yeah that's what I'm afraid of it's going to be business as usual davidpdx Jan 2013 #68
Informed opinion wins again. Imagine. n/t Blandocyte Jan 2013 #74
Fine. America wants more and more senseless gun murders. kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #76
We just can't get enough slaughter of innocents and children, can we? Keep the blood flowing! Kablooie Jan 2013 #81
Good. Now hopefully we can turn towards legislation that actually does something Recursion Jan 2013 #84
Gun control, filibuster reform, Doctor_J Jan 2013 #93
I find it ironic as hell nick of time Jan 2013 #94
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