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In reply to the discussion: Pope washes women's feet in break with church law [View all]uppityperson
(116,023 posts)93. Do you mean this? Trying to interpret what you wrote...
Pope and dads set examples whether they want to or not. If I have dessert despite not having finished my supper, my kids do not experience that family rule as something presumably oriented to their welfare, but rather, as an imposition to be borne until they, too, are old enough to make and break the rules.
Rules are to be born until you are old enough to make and break them.
Now, none will dispute that Pope Francis has, by washing the feet of women at his Holy Thursday Mass, set an example. The question is, what kind of example has he set?
What sort of example has the Pope set?
As a matter of substance, I have long questioned the cogency of arguments that the Mandatum rite should be limited to adult males (a point lost on Michael Sean Winters in his recent nutty over a Mandatum-related post by Fr. Z that linked to my writings on the subject).
You say you questions why this rite should be limited to adult males.
But I have never doubted that liturgical law expressly limits participation in that rite to adult males, and I have consistently called on Catholics, clerics and laity alike, to observe this pontifically-promulgated law in service to the unity (dare I say, the catholicity) of liturgy (c. 837).
Law says it should be limited to adult males.
Pope Francis action today renders these arguments moot. Not wrong, mind. Moot.
The Pope has said that law is moot by doing this. Not a law any more.
By disregarding his own law in this matter, Francis violates, of course, no divine directive, nor does heto anticipate an obvious questionachieve the abrogation of a law which, as it happens, I would not mind seeing abrogated. What he does do, I fear, is set a questionable example at Supper time.
You'd like this law to be gone. The pope has canceled the law. But by doing so he sets a questionable example.
Were not talking here about, say, eschewing papal apartments or limousines or fancy footwear. None of those matters were the objects of law, let alone of laws that bind countless others. (Personally, I find Francis actions in these areas inspiring although, granted, I do not have to deal with complications for others being caused by the popes simplicity).
You finds Pope Francis's actions regarding fancy things inspiring, probably because Francis doesn't like to have the fancy things.
Rather, re the Mandatum rite, were talking about a clear, unambiguous, reasonable (if not entirely compelling or suitable) liturgical provision, compliance with which has cost many faithful pastors undeserved ill-will from many quarters, and contempt for which has served mostly as a sacrament of disregard for Roman rules on a variety of other matters.
Again you says the law has been clear, and it has been an issue for many pastors
Today, whether he wanted to, or not, Francis set the Catholic world an example, about solidarity with outcasts, certainly, and about regard for liturgy.
Pope Francis showed solidarity with downtrodden and showed he doesn't think that "because we've always done it that way" is a good enough argument.
A final thought: we live in antinomian times. One of the odd things about antinomianism (a condition that, by the way, does not always imply ill-will in its adherents though it usually implies a lack of understanding on their part) is that antinomianism makes reform of law not easier but harder: why bother undertaking the necessary but difficult reform of law when its easier simply to ignore it?
Its a question with reverberations well beyond those of a foot-washing rite.
From wiki "Antinomianism in Christianity is the belief that under the gospel dispensation of grace, moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation". You are saying, I think, that we live in a time when we are just supposed to have faith, which means people don't need to think or understand but just believe. And this makes changing laws more difficult because rather than changing it you can just ignore it. And this is the point that goes far beyond the foot washing rite.
Rules are to be born until you are old enough to make and break them.
Now, none will dispute that Pope Francis has, by washing the feet of women at his Holy Thursday Mass, set an example. The question is, what kind of example has he set?
What sort of example has the Pope set?
As a matter of substance, I have long questioned the cogency of arguments that the Mandatum rite should be limited to adult males (a point lost on Michael Sean Winters in his recent nutty over a Mandatum-related post by Fr. Z that linked to my writings on the subject).
You say you questions why this rite should be limited to adult males.
But I have never doubted that liturgical law expressly limits participation in that rite to adult males, and I have consistently called on Catholics, clerics and laity alike, to observe this pontifically-promulgated law in service to the unity (dare I say, the catholicity) of liturgy (c. 837).
Law says it should be limited to adult males.
Pope Francis action today renders these arguments moot. Not wrong, mind. Moot.
The Pope has said that law is moot by doing this. Not a law any more.
By disregarding his own law in this matter, Francis violates, of course, no divine directive, nor does heto anticipate an obvious questionachieve the abrogation of a law which, as it happens, I would not mind seeing abrogated. What he does do, I fear, is set a questionable example at Supper time.
You'd like this law to be gone. The pope has canceled the law. But by doing so he sets a questionable example.
Were not talking here about, say, eschewing papal apartments or limousines or fancy footwear. None of those matters were the objects of law, let alone of laws that bind countless others. (Personally, I find Francis actions in these areas inspiring although, granted, I do not have to deal with complications for others being caused by the popes simplicity).
You finds Pope Francis's actions regarding fancy things inspiring, probably because Francis doesn't like to have the fancy things.
Rather, re the Mandatum rite, were talking about a clear, unambiguous, reasonable (if not entirely compelling or suitable) liturgical provision, compliance with which has cost many faithful pastors undeserved ill-will from many quarters, and contempt for which has served mostly as a sacrament of disregard for Roman rules on a variety of other matters.
Again you says the law has been clear, and it has been an issue for many pastors
Today, whether he wanted to, or not, Francis set the Catholic world an example, about solidarity with outcasts, certainly, and about regard for liturgy.
Pope Francis showed solidarity with downtrodden and showed he doesn't think that "because we've always done it that way" is a good enough argument.
A final thought: we live in antinomian times. One of the odd things about antinomianism (a condition that, by the way, does not always imply ill-will in its adherents though it usually implies a lack of understanding on their part) is that antinomianism makes reform of law not easier but harder: why bother undertaking the necessary but difficult reform of law when its easier simply to ignore it?
Its a question with reverberations well beyond those of a foot-washing rite.
From wiki "Antinomianism in Christianity is the belief that under the gospel dispensation of grace, moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation". You are saying, I think, that we live in a time when we are just supposed to have faith, which means people don't need to think or understand but just believe. And this makes changing laws more difficult because rather than changing it you can just ignore it. And this is the point that goes far beyond the foot washing rite.
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There he is, washing the feet of a female prisoner in blue jeans, saying he's at their service.
freshwest
Mar 2013
#33
One person can, with acceptance and approval, encourage those who have suffered greatly.
freshwest
Mar 2013
#98
I AM the child of immigrants. It is very different from being raised by parents born in the U.S. and
merrily
Mar 2013
#115
No, I do realize now why I posted it and it was not a throwaway comment at all.
merrily
Mar 2013
#119
They're going to assassinate this guy. Those religious wingnuts don't play this game.
loudsue
Mar 2013
#10
JP #1 was assassinated precisely because he *was* going after the Vatican Bank, yes?
villager
Mar 2013
#13
These days the Roman Catholic Church is attempting to overcome negative preconceptions....
Spitfire of ATJ
Mar 2013
#92
I wonder if this is why he decided on different living quarters, not as isolated as the big place.
freshwest
Mar 2013
#102
Thanks for the name of the place. Is there a shorter name for the official residence?
freshwest
Mar 2013
#145
I'm no doctor, but I do remember a song about bones that laid out the pattern pretty clearly! nt
MADem
Mar 2013
#43
I assume the other poster meant he needs to do penance and offer humble apology for his years of
Bluenorthwest
Mar 2013
#86
style over substance; still not slightly impressed with the junta's cleric
Alamuti Lotus
Mar 2013
#28
It freaks me out when I see religious leaders acting like the figures from their religion.
Poll_Blind
Mar 2013
#29
These are young prisoners so I think their hygiene and pedi opportunities are limited. n/t
pnwmom
Mar 2013
#71
Thank you for that wonderful summary of the birth of misogyny in the Catholic Church.
Pab Sungenis
Mar 2013
#46
She died in a dispute between the Bishop of Alexandria AND the Governor of Alexandria
happyslug
Apr 2013
#147
I like that he's wasting no time in establishing his new Church policies and agenda
lunatica
Mar 2013
#44
BFD.... sell off the churches land and loot and give it to the poor then I'll be impressed.
bowens43
Mar 2013
#53
He says gay people are an attack on God, so those of you lauding him for this own that.
Bluenorthwest
Mar 2013
#84
No, lauding the Pope for washing people's feet does not confer ownership of his homophobic stance
DisgustipatedinCA
Mar 2013
#89
Francis' gesture sparked a debate among some conservatives and liturgical purists
VA_Jill
Mar 2013
#91
Seems like he might have been the best possible outcome from that conclave
MannyGoldstein
Mar 2013
#100
This is important because he is a role model and the more liberal the better
Quixote1818
Mar 2013
#131
Being at one's service is actually being at one's service. To me this is a stunt.
Lint Head
Apr 2013
#156