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The Velveteen Ocelot

(130,887 posts)

211. Fatigue could have been an issue, even though they would have had an augment crew.

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 11:07 AM

Jul 2013

So maybe this scenario: No ILS for backup; they didn't program, or didn't follow, a VNAV glide path, so the flight directors aren't very helpful or maybe even giving guidance that made things worse. Maybe a pilot who rarely hand flies the jet for anything other than the last 1000 feet of a very stable straight-in on an ILS. After a very long flight the pilot just didn't make the transition fast enough from automated mode to "stick and rudder" mode. Deceptive visual cues coming in over water could have made it hard to tell he was critically low. When he realized he was in trouble he pulled the nose up and added power but it was too late.

As you say - the NTSB/FAA probably already know pretty much what happened. Read somewhere else on the net (so it must be true, haha) that the CEO of the airlines told media there wasn't a mechanical problem, which indicates they have already talked to the crew.

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BREAKING: Boeing 777 crashes at San Francisco Airport. [View all] premium Jul 2013 OP

oh boy Nanjing to Seoul Jul 2013 #1

Photo from passenger: Hissyspit Jul 2013 #31

people walking away, wow Voice for Peace Jul 2013 #43

Yep, a good landing is one where you can walk away from. RC Jul 2013 #57

That's a relief... AsahinaKimi Jul 2013 #74

That's a VERY good sign!!! Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #50

Not good sign nmbluesky Jul 2013 #140

One source says 2 killed. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #143

@AP: BREAKING: Hospital official says 10 critically injured in Asiana airline crash at San Francisco Hissyspit Jul 2013 #149

Thank you Hissyspit! Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #150

CNN Breaking News - San Francisco General Hospital and Trauma Center treating 8 adults, 2 kids, all Hissyspit Jul 2013 #151

@AP: MORE: The AP contacted police, fire and coroner's officials and didn't confirm any deaths in th Hissyspit Jul 2013 #152

The person in the green shirt...is toting a SUITCASE!!! hexola Jul 2013 #112

So he should. And those passengers should be identified and hammered. TheMadMonk Jul 2013 #182

They are carrying away their overhead luggage Generic Other Jul 2013 #115

It seems there wasn't any panic, which is a tribute to the flight crew. premium Jul 2013 #116

but removing overhead luggage? Generic Other Jul 2013 #125

Unfortunately, premium Jul 2013 #127

Sun AM: Simply landed short. Guardian has the most coherent report, CNN best video panzerfaust Jul 2013 #202

OMG - my daughter is at airport and was supposed to leave in 20 mins! Pachamama Jul 2013 #2

Have you talked to her? Control-Z Jul 2013 #4

Not to her - but my husband called and has been telling me what happened... Pachamama Jul 2013 #25

Do you know what airline? Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #8

She was on Alaska airlines headed to Portland.... Pachamama Jul 2013 #12

This was Asiana Airlines. The good news is that the aircraft is largely intact-slides were deployed Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #16

My husband saw it from gate burning - has full view. This was to be my daughters 1st solo flight Pachamama Jul 2013 #19

She is fine, the aircraft is hundreds of yards away from any terminal. NYC_SKP Jul 2013 #10

Guess all that outsourcing and sharing the wealth around the world worked out well. Too soon? nt silvershadow Jul 2013 #3

I thought that was the 787? NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #28

It is the 787 that was outsourced. The 777 was built almost entirely in the US The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2013 #30

I know. NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #35

Yes, that was what I was responding to. The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2013 #37

Oh, you should have replied to him. NutmegYankee Jul 2013 #42

Yup, my bad. The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2013 #45

Whoops, my bad. silvershadow Jul 2013 #66

So if this were a 787 that crashed it would be an indictment of outsourcing. pampango Jul 2013 #200

If you're asking if one knee-jerk reaction of mine was intending to be silvershadow Jul 2013 #215

I believe in FDR's approach: legal protections for unions, lower tariffs and a strong safety net. pampango Jul 2013 #217

787 is outsourced backwoodsbob Jul 2013 #218

Many. This has been well-known for years. The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2013 #219

thanks backwoodsbob Jul 2013 #220

Asiana is one of the top-rated airlines in the world. The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2013 #29

San Francisco is one of the most dangerous airports in the world. Kablooie Jul 2013 #78

Except that the weather wasn't a problem today. The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2013 #82

I've only flown into SF one time in my life and I found the approach out of the south where you are kestrel91316 Jul 2013 #104

I too have only flown into SFO once, premium Jul 2013 #109

+1 tofuandbeer Jul 2013 #135

The side by side runways are what terrify me. Gormy Cuss Jul 2013 #174

No it is not one of the most dangerous airports in the world. pangaia Jul 2013 #214

Yes, they are davidpdx Jul 2013 #134

Epic fail. Leave the politics out next time. n/t Psephos Jul 2013 #49

+1 n/t cosmicone Jul 2013 #84

Thank You!! nt CokeMachine Jul 2013 #148

CNN breaking with it now... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #5

Possibly more like a very hard landing, smoke, it's an Aseana Airlines flight. (nt) NYC_SKP Jul 2013 #6

Asiana Airlines Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #13

Maybe clipped the tail section? sofa king Jul 2013 #99

The fuselage was destroyed by electrical fire. Given the debris on 28L... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #101

Way too low. The way the tail is sheered off tells the tale. TheMadMonk Jul 2013 #184

According to the rumor mill (Twitter) Warpy Jul 2013 #7

Just got a call from my husband - my daughter is deplaning from her Flight and being rebooked for Pachamama Jul 2013 #9

Phew!!!!! Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #15

Yes, indeed she was scheduled to depart at 12:28.... Pachamama Jul 2013 #20

I hope this doesn't deter her. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #24

No kidding!! The good news is that she has been traveling for years, including international, so I Pachamama Jul 2013 #41

I've always known how safe flying is, SheilaT Jul 2013 #137

Fears are not always rational and not always curable rebecca_herman Jul 2013 #169

Good news maddezmom Jul 2013 #18

Poor kid - first solo flight at age 9 and she is really shook up according to my husband.... Pachamama Jul 2013 #22

Glad to know she's ok! Iliyah Jul 2013 #56

Very good news, premium Jul 2013 #27

It's on CNN now. Faygo Kid Jul 2013 #11

Boeing 777 crashes while landing at San Francisco airport operated by Asiana Airlines in from S Kore maddezmom Jul 2013 #14

That's what I call "breaking" news mindwalker_i Jul 2013 #17

You know nothing . I hope that's not in bad taste . orpupilofnature57 Jul 2013 #36

The fuselage appears intact for now, with deployed escape shoots. Hoping for the best. nt SunSeeker Jul 2013 #21

Tail detached during landing Bosonic Jul 2013 #23

It's upright on the runway now... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #33

Video shows the wings still attached but top of the fuselage burned through. The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2013 #39

They're saying that the tail detached during landing and the landing gear collapsed. nt. premium Jul 2013 #46

You have to have a pretty violent tail strike for that kind of damage. The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2013 #48

I concur, premium Jul 2013 #51

The debris field starts right at the rip rap of the approach end of 28L Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #71

Thanks for the pics. premium Jul 2013 #76

Looks like the forward top of the fuselage is burned away, premium Jul 2013 #40

Given the aircraft is relatively intact, I think any casualties will be, thankfully, minimal. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #44

Local SF radio is saying that's dirt Brother Buzz Jul 2013 #58

Have no idea where they're coming up with dirt, premium Jul 2013 #63

No, that's burned fuselage. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #64

Yes, my radio is now saying the top did burned late into the event Brother Buzz Jul 2013 #67

Upright, off the runway - tail did detach. Brother Buzz Jul 2013 #38

A pic of THE Asiana Airlines 777 involved in today's incident: Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #26

Some additional pictures as a youtube video... PoliticAverse Jul 2013 #47

And the purpose of that promotional montage is? /nt TheMadMonk Jul 2013 #185

Here is the photo Crow73 Jul 2013 #32

Youtube video of the plane on the ground... PoliticAverse Jul 2013 #34

Are the passengers off the plane? sakabatou Jul 2013 #52

Info is sketchy ailsagirl Jul 2013 #55

Per Hissyspit's pic upthread, I don't think it's as dire as that: Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #61

I hope so-- my sister saw the black plume of smoke ailsagirl Jul 2013 #75

There was fire, but by every account I've read, the a/c was evacuated by the time the fire... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #85

I'd say the emergency personnel did (are doing) a good job ailsagirl Jul 2013 #168

Not Really a plane crash more like a hard landing warrior1 Jul 2013 #53

...more like a bad landing. There's debris on the 28L overrun... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #59

Bits of the empennage are all over the 28L overrun. Looks like the tail struck BEFORE the main gear Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #54

Thanks, premium Jul 2013 #60

They showed the overrun of 28L (the approach end) and it's strewn with debris... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #62

Agreed. premium Jul 2013 #65

You have to bang the tail awfully hard for that to happen, The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2013 #68

If the aircraft lost power or control on final, then the crew should be appauded... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #72

Yep, the betting at AirDisaster.com is that they landed short - lost the gear, then the tail panzerfaust Jul 2013 #178

The were on the visual ... panzerfaust Jul 2013 #179

Maybe the baro was set wrong... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jul 2013 #183

"Don't sink. PULL UP!" Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #186

Descent rates show -1320 to -1380... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jul 2013 #188

AVHerald's report here: Mr. David Jul 2013 #69

LIVE LOCAL TV NEWS FEED Sedona Jul 2013 #70

Thank you - my husband travels the Seoul -NY route frequently via Asiana, so hedgehog Jul 2013 #95

Did Snowden get out OK?? thelordofhell Jul 2013 #73

If that was supposed to be a joke.... mimi85 Jul 2013 #176

From what I've heard the plane was at a high angle of attack Major Nikon Jul 2013 #77

Has to be an abort. Needs one hell of a lot of rotation to take the tail off like that. TheMadMonk Jul 2013 #187

From what I can tell, the runway has no threshold to speak of Major Nikon Jul 2013 #189

That part of the runway is called the "over run". Pilots are not supposed... TheMadMonk Jul 2013 #191

The technical name is "displaced threshold" if it exists Major Nikon Jul 2013 #193

AS per other posts. The pilot should have been aiming for a point much (1000 ft?)... TheMadMonk Jul 2013 #194

Actually no Major Nikon Jul 2013 #195

And as far as I can tell THAT first 1000' or so of tarmac IS NOT RUNWAY. TheMadMonk Jul 2013 #203

From KTUV unconfirmed .....no fatalities Sedona Jul 2013 #79

There might be two fatalities enlightenment Jul 2013 #103

Local Fox affiliate is now reporting that the premium Jul 2013 #113

True. enlightenment Jul 2013 #124

WNEM FarCenter Jul 2013 #80

Looks like one of the engines seperated and got pushed against the fuselage. hexola Jul 2013 #81

They're saying that all passengers and flight crew got off. nt. premium Jul 2013 #86

What does cartwheeling mean darkangel218 Jul 2013 #83

It means the piece of the airplane broke and spun off (possibly) sakabatou Jul 2013 #87

Ahh ok. thanks darkangel218 Jul 2013 #88

Cartwheeling is another word for rolling end over end. premium Jul 2013 #90

I don't think it "cartwheeled" in the sense that UA 232 did in Sioux City, IA Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #91

I don't think so either, premium Jul 2013 #96

Wings look intact - if they saw anything carwheeling - it was parts of the tail... hexola Jul 2013 #102

291 on board- ZERO killed. ZERO serious injuries. James48 Jul 2013 #89

...and a testament to Boeing. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #93

thank you for that! n/t KT2000 Jul 2013 #132

Despite the issues w/ 787, their aircraft are exceptional. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #133

Flying Fortress. premium Jul 2013 #138

I won a half-hr ride on one a year ago! Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #139

Incredible video. premium Jul 2013 #145

Hellcats of the Navy, baby!!! Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #147

He was actually stationed aboard premium Jul 2013 #204

You bet!! KT2000 Jul 2013 #142

Boeing builds awesome aircraft. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #144

Awesome! KT2000 Jul 2013 #171

Now reporting 2 deaths KTUV hexola Jul 2013 #97

2:02pm KCBS in SF just announced 2 fatalities, 61 injured. avaistheone1 Jul 2013 #119

Not seeing fatalities listed anywhere else... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #136

Here's a confirmation from another SF station. avaistheone1 Jul 2013 #153

The reason for my questions are these: Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #157

This whole thread skiting about American exceptionalism is out of place here. TheMadMonk Jul 2013 #190

There's raw footage of the plane from local station KTVU here: NBachers Jul 2013 #92

747 SFO approach and landing runway 28 right cockpit view Sedona Jul 2013 #94

That's 28R... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #98

This message was self-deleted by its author Sedona Jul 2013 #105

Wow, that nearly put me to sleep. Great video, very clear view of the landing. Thanks. freshwest Jul 2013 #196

KCBS is reporting that 12 injuries but NO DEATHS AsahinaKimi Jul 2013 #100

It is amazing. Octafish Jul 2013 #106

KCBS is now reporting two Deaths.. AsahinaKimi Jul 2013 #114

I am sorry. It was too good to be true. Octafish Jul 2013 #123

That is good news! Thanks, AsahinaKimi. EDIT: Spoke too soon: freshwest Jul 2013 #197

Found the audio recording from the tower Major Nikon Jul 2013 #107

Great find, Major! Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #110

Near as I can tell the pilot never declares an emergency Major Nikon Jul 2013 #122

nbc is on top of it Iliyah Jul 2013 #108

burn victims went to St. Francis AsahinaKimi Jul 2013 #111

Several news stations are reporting 2 fatalities premium Jul 2013 #118

The plane looks messed up in this pic. East Coast Pirate Jul 2013 #117

The fire happened after the crash - look at this pic... hexola Jul 2013 #120

777 is a great plane... Agschmid Jul 2013 #121

Yeah, much better shape there. East Coast Pirate Jul 2013 #126

Gotta love the idiot Mr.Bill Jul 2013 #131

NO YOU DON'T! He put lives at risk for property. TheMadMonk Jul 2013 #192

He's probably in shock MrsMatt Jul 2013 #199

Not sure I would. Too much historical evidence of awipes kissing seafloors... TheMadMonk Jul 2013 #201

My point was, he most likely wasn't thinking straight, if at all. MrsMatt Jul 2013 #205

My feelings are different, because regardless of HIS actions, I DO KNOW... TheMadMonk Jul 2013 #213

Apparently my sarcasm was missed. Mr.Bill Jul 2013 #216

Another after the fire is out. Whew. uppityperson Jul 2013 #128

KCBS reporting in addition to the 2 fatalities, there are at least 10 critically injured: 2 children avaistheone1 Jul 2013 #129

So sad, premium Jul 2013 #130

I've taken many flights between Seoul and SF davidpdx Jul 2013 #141

Either something weird happened on final (regarding power or control)... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #146

Or, autoland coupled to inaccurate glideslope? The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2013 #155

It was severe clear by every wx report. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #159

Could have been doing an autoland anyhow. The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2013 #162

No autoland without an ILS Major Nikon Jul 2013 #207

Yup, just read that myself - so that theory's out. The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2013 #208

I'm sure the NTSB and FAA already have a good idea Major Nikon Jul 2013 #209

Fatigue could have been an issue, even though they would have had an augment crew. The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2013 #211

I like Asiana get the red out Jul 2013 #163

Weird railsback Jul 2013 #154

Could the water color have become like the runway? From what is being said, the jtuck004 Jul 2013 #156

Not likely because even on a visual approach The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2013 #161

I gathered that, but your is the most specific confirmation I've gotten. jtuck004 Jul 2013 #170

On a 777 there should be 10-11 flight attendants The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2013 #177

The glideslope was out of service Major Nikon Jul 2013 #206

They flew it right into the ground James48 Jul 2013 #158

We don't know if they had a power (engine) failure on approach. Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #160

Engine problems usually don't happen that quickly. The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2013 #164

Oh, they can happen quickly. Usually, not when the engines are at a low power setting... Cooley Hurd Jul 2013 #166

Wow! I was looking for that page, thank-you! I use that site to hedgehog Jul 2013 #165

Univision says at least ten injured, eight adults, two children in the hospital. RILib Jul 2013 #167

@AP: SF Fire Chief says two are dead in crash of Asiana jetliner at San Francisco International Airp Hissyspit Jul 2013 #172

CNN Breaking News - Sixty people are unaccounted for following the plane crash at San Francisco Inte Hissyspit Jul 2013 #173

I just heard that as well. mimi85 Jul 2013 #175

@BreakingNews: Officials: 1 person unaccounted for after San Francisco plane crash; 181 transported Hissyspit Jul 2013 #180

Breaking news: 181 injured 2 dead, 1 missing warrior1 Jul 2013 #181

The first 777 crash was because of ice crystals in the fuel jakeXT Jul 2013 #198

Did people power up their cell phones before things went awry? hedgehog Jul 2013 #210

Victims in crash identified as two teens Gormy Cuss Jul 2013 #212