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Igel

(37,548 posts)
21. Yes and no.
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 01:58 PM
Aug 2013

There's a long line of examples of people who despised the Ikhwan. They did so for two reasons.

The first and best is that the Ikhwan used violence to try to achieve their vision of social justice. Violence is a bad answer to most questions. It's not a good answer now--unless we like being hobbled by interpreting everything through a historical lens. "The Germans were facists in 1940, so the Germans must still be facists." The world's changed. Change with it.

The second is that the Ikhwan is intrinsically opposed to the idea of Egyptian nationalism, as ordained by the Egyptian 1%ers of yore and encouraged by the West. Egyptian nationalistic views are compatible with the higher education and training that the rabble's "betters," the generals and jurists, have.

This says that Egypt is special. It's people are one, united around a great language that is the only one to be used; an official history aggrandizing the state and the people; a glorious culture that must be defended; and a sound economy that is the first among its peers. It's a nationalism that favors a strong unifying state in which the central government has a strong hand in guiding private enterprise to support the government and in the the state is glorified and must not be criticised. There are elements of Arabism in it, but not sufficient to make Egypt not special. (Try applying this to the US. Go ahead, say it's a grand and glorious thing.) The result of this is that Egypt is pretty much the only Arab state in which tribalism isn't a serious factor. Of course, Egypt's far from being averse to playing the tribalism card, as long as the tribal boundary that serves to stoke calls to "rally the wagons" can be framed in nationalist terms--anti-Israeli propaganda or even anti-Jewish propaganda. Jews were never really Egyptians because they had their own sense of "ummah-hood".

This is also historical, but was true in 2010 and those who are in charge of the coup were important in 2010 and it's never been renounced. It's not like the Ikhwan's violence, which was renounced quite a while ago for very well-stated theoretical reasons (whether or not you believe they were telling the truth, note that the last month gave them ample opportunity to revert).

The Ikhwan come back and say that the ummah is paramount in serving Islam and not al-watan, the state. Egypt rejected pan-Arabism after toying with it for a while. It has to reject Islamism because it would divide groups in society.

The Ikhwan also retort that Islam is the way, and the secular, higher-ed, 1%er views of the Army and judges are misguided. Better to be pure than educated, observant than rich, faithful than chauvinist. They're not Boko Haram, but there are vague similarities. Then again, there are similarities with a lot of Democrats in rejecting the primacy of higher education and nationalism, so it's the extent of the analogy that's important not the mere fact that you can draw the analogy.


BTW, Saddam's "people" didn't abandon him in full. Many saw him as weak when he vanished--don't forget all the "strong horse" talk, so it's not an entirely false claim. But he was sheltered by "his people" for a long time, and he still had a lot of support among the Sunni tribes that he fostered and supported. It was only after some of his supporters got out of hand--infiltrated by Salafists out for shari'a and not Saddam--that they were rejected and the US had to come in and protect and train their men, clearing the field so they could be mop-up crews and peacekeepers.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Seems ok since it wasn't a Coup after all JCMach1 Aug 2013 #1
++1,000. nt kelliekat44 Aug 2013 #2
They're trying to box clever dipsydoodle Aug 2013 #3
"Legally?" Scootaloo Aug 2013 #4
Hasn't that been done before? another_liberal Aug 2013 #5
This thing is getting RiverNoord Aug 2013 #6
Anti-Morsi youth groups . . . another_liberal Aug 2013 #8
You keep comparing John2 Aug 2013 #11
Actually, try educating your children the way you want even in some states. Igel Aug 2013 #17
I'll be honest. As a woman, I find it impossible to see the fundamentalist "point of view" MH1 Aug 2013 #30
How about the women among those who were trapped in the Mosque? another_liberal Aug 2013 #31
You're talking about two different things leftynyc Aug 2013 #34
once again what about the women who were killed for supporting MB? azurnoir Aug 2013 #35
I mourn ALL the people killed, leftynyc Aug 2013 #44
Ah so you deem yourself the one knowing what Egyptian women what? azurnoir Aug 2013 #45
Spare me leftynyc Aug 2013 #47
I support democracy and leaders who are chosen by the ballot box. another_liberal Aug 2013 #41
I am sorry to see any violence perpetrated on anyone MH1 Aug 2013 #39
Guilt by association is a pretty awful reason to condemn innocent people. another_liberal Aug 2013 #42
Nice excuse for mass murder. And way to deny those Egyptian women any agency whatsoever. Comrade Grumpy Sep 2013 #49
You don't have to be sorry at all. Less than ten percent of the country supports them. MADem Aug 2013 #36
Unsound reasoning dipsydoodle Aug 2013 #37
There were no shortage of candidates, but even at that, there was little turnout. MADem Aug 2013 #38
Yes, many women and most LGBT's don't see the fundamentalist POV. Zorra Aug 2013 #46
The vast majority of Egyptians . . . another_liberal Aug 2013 #29
There are many shades of Islam, just as there are of Christianity MH1 Aug 2013 #40
Neither was the Moslem Brotherhood. happyslug Sep 2013 #50
I don't know if they were used in the sense that the military pushed them to protest karynnj Aug 2013 #14
I did not mean to say the Morsi government was illegal. Far from it! another_liberal Aug 2013 #28
I'm sorry - it is my really bad usage of "you" in the last paragraph that made it sound like that karynnj Aug 2013 #33
You claim it John2 Aug 2013 #13
Gotcha. Igel Aug 2013 #18
You got John2 Aug 2013 #24
Um... dude - you don't have a clue. RiverNoord Sep 2013 #48
Wonder where they got an idea like that! ConcernedCanuk Aug 2013 #7
Where was Al Qaeda John2 Aug 2013 #12
"Where was Al Qaeda" before the USA invaded? NOT in Iraq. ConcernedCanuk Aug 2013 #16
It is because John2 Aug 2013 #26
Yes and no. Igel Aug 2013 #21
Yet another Middle Eastern country East Coast Pirate Aug 2013 #9
Yup. Igel Aug 2013 #22
Right now sounds good to the Copts. jessie04 Aug 2013 #10
It would be a prelude. Igel Aug 2013 #27
Egyptian youth leader backs army in battle with Brotherhood Bosonic Aug 2013 #15
Here are your "liberal" friends of democracy. Comrade Grumpy Aug 2013 #19
Again: "In Egypt, the liberals aren't democrats and the democrats aren't liberals." Igel Aug 2013 #25
We all know this is not going to end well. n/t Yo_Mama Aug 2013 #20
That'll stop Egypt's poor from wanting to vote! /nt Ash_F Aug 2013 #23
Good luck with that! elleng Aug 2013 #32
Muslim Brotherhood has been in existence since 1928. Good Luck with the dissolution. no_hypocrisy Aug 2013 #43
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