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happyslug

(14,779 posts)
84. Yet when the man on the street is tested on his Math and Science level, the US beats almost all
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 07:10 PM
Feb 2012

Notice the test I am using, test of ADULTS on the streets, NOT the best and brightest that are still in school. The US has had some of the lowest education level for decades, but when people on the street are asked question, the US tend to score quite high.

The reason for this difference is primary HOW we educate. Most of the world follows the Prussian school of thought on education, the best and brightest goes to High School, Students who score lower on the test in what we would call Middle Schools are directed to the trades.

The US REJECTS this two track system and wants everyone in High School. The High School may direct some of its students to vo-tech training, but they still go to High School for general Education subjects.

The US method has the side affect of when you test High School students. you test both the students in most other countries's High Schools AND the students in other countries's trade schools. Thus the US will tend to be LOW in most comparisons for most Countries's High School Students EXCLUDE Trade school students. The good side affect is more US students are exposed to broader ideas talked about in High School and Collage. Thus the US STUDENTS tend to score low, but US Adults tend to score High.

As to actually improving Schools. I mention the choice the US Auto Industry (and most of the rest of the US industry) took in the 1950s, and the opposite choice the Japanese Auto Industry (and the rest of Japanese Industry) took in the 1950s. The choice was, do you go with the "Best and the Brightest" (what US companies did) or do you concentrate on improving the WORSE part of your production (The Japanese choice). BOTH options came out of mid century US industry research. The Japan took the word of several top US experts that one can NOT exceed the quality of your worse input, thus to improve quality look at your worse input and improve that part of your product.

American Industry took the opposite view, look at hiring the best and brightest and lets see what they can do. Thus you have the Mustangs, the GTOs, the Hemis of the 1960s, but the problem was quality declined. Great Engines, Large comfortable cars, but no quality control.

The Japanese cars of the 1960s were crap (my Father owned one, rusted out in two years, through the engine was excellent). The Japanese saw they problem and fixed them, concentrating on better paint, installing rust resistant parts in areas cars most often rusted out first, overall concentration on those areas of the Car Japanese cars were known to be weak in. By the early 1970s, Japanese Cars had left their reputation for rust behind them, and were noted to be better fit and finish then their American competitors. This is the product of seeing your worse input and improving on that worse input. American Cars concentrated on large engines, large interior rooms and "Bells and Whistles" i.e. Air Conditioning, radios with Cassette players, later CD players, wrap around sound, cushier sears etc, while overall quality declined (for example Chevrolet in the 1970s and 1980s was know to put parts on a car, with the parts produced in three different plants and painted at those plants, thus hard to get an exact paint match when the parts were assembled into one car).

Now why do I go into the above when the topic is education, the problem is today when you hear of people wanting to "improve" education, it is rarely mentioned about helping to lower the drop out rate, or to improve grades of the lowest 10% of students, i.e. the worse inputs. Instead all you hear is how to improve the "best and the brightest". The student who has been in three to four schools in a single year as that child's parents try to keep a roof over their family's head, is NOT even mentioned in this debate. How do we help the Student who can NOT get any help at home for his parents can not read and write?

No you do NOT hear of such problem students (in many ways Schools are encouraged to kick them out, thus improving their test scores), instead you hear of why can't my child go to an advance placement class? Why is an Advance placement class NOT offered? Advance placement is for the Best and the Brightest, and as a former Best and Brightest student, I can tell you I did NOT need such help. To a good degree I could do it on my own, the problem is the worse input, the lowest 10% of students grade wise. The issue should be how do we help them, and the silence on such help is deafening. These students cost the most to educate, they need support most Schools are NOT set up to provide (i.e. housing and a stable family environment).

Yes, no one wants to address the real problems of education for it will cost money, and the people helped are the least likely to vote (The poor and uneducated are the least likely to vote, the higher your level of education the more likely you will vote, and Politicians know this). On the other hand, such politicians are more then willing to "help" those people most likely to vote, thus the push for private schools. That is the best way to improve the education in the US, an education system in need of reform, but not the type being discussed.

He digs a bigger hole with every nutjob comment Faygo Kid Feb 2012 #1
Indeed! Even Republicans may turn asjr Feb 2012 #5
Don't underestimate the level of crazy in the backwash nxylas Feb 2012 #10
I don't think he's mentally deranged... RoccoR5955 Feb 2012 #22
Please, not before he lands some more body blows Surya Gayatri Feb 2012 #7
Another reason why women have to stay home nobodyspecial Feb 2012 #2
Well, obviously, Ricky is a pre-revolutionary Surya Gayatri Feb 2012 #8
No he's not... RoccoR5955 Feb 2012 #23
These four things fit together perfectly: XemaSab Feb 2012 #67
You've described the circular logic perfectly... Volaris Feb 2012 #80
Whereas HE is stuck in the Middle Ages. LiberalEsto Feb 2012 #3
I think Sanscrotum would love... 47of74 Feb 2012 #6
Rick Sanitarium belongs in a padded cell. DinahMoeHum Feb 2012 #4
Guess who is stuck in "Little House on the Prairie?" Downwinder Feb 2012 #9
Well, it's not Santorum jmowreader Feb 2012 #40
Yes, chervilant Feb 2012 #61
In reality it didn't matter anyway... jmowreader Feb 2012 #78
hmm... chervilant Feb 2012 #82
You know, I think this is an interesting perspective... RevStPatrick Feb 2012 #11
He is right about one thing...they ARE a product of the Industrial Revolution. cleanhippie Feb 2012 #12
That's what I'm talkin' about... RevStPatrick Feb 2012 #13
I agree with that. cleanhippie Feb 2012 #14
Indeed! chervilant Feb 2012 #63
What was the class size in the little red schoolhouse? Downwinder Feb 2012 #16
I agree Joe Shlabotnik Feb 2012 #17
That's because schools only teach for a test, they should RoccoR5955 Feb 2012 #24
And how would a non-public school system help everyone get started? muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #26
don't misunderstand me, Joe Shlabotnik Feb 2012 #28
Aren't stereotypes fun....when they benefit your views? joeglow3 Feb 2012 #31
There are many fine Catholic schools. I am not overly concerned about their educational standards. olegramps Feb 2012 #58
How come business has no part in this if they want the "workers of tomorrow"? xtraxritical Feb 2012 #35
excellent point Joe Shlabotnik Feb 2012 #37
oh please, as soon as a Republican starts talking about American History Enrique Feb 2012 #56
Not that it happens often, buy a republican CAN be correct. cleanhippie Feb 2012 #57
Uh huh. But religious homeschooling, that's not "anachronistic." DirkGently Feb 2012 #15
Hiring private tutors =/= homeschooling. wickerwoman Feb 2012 #18
hmm... chervilant Feb 2012 #65
Yet when the man on the street is tested on his Math and Science level, the US beats almost all happyslug Feb 2012 #84
Okay... chervilant Feb 2012 #85
One of the reports I read on Schools was to ask if the school had a PTA or a PTO happyslug Feb 2012 #87
Also, chervilant Feb 2012 #86
Oddly enough, those "factory era" schools are the types that the conservatives zbdent Feb 2012 #19
Many years ago, Brigid Feb 2012 #20
Rick says: 'I am an idiot, vote for me and I will home school my children' Angry Dragon Feb 2012 #21
The current education system usrname Feb 2012 #25
Didn't he mean - IDemo Feb 2012 #27
What he means is that public schools employ UNION workers as teachers OmahaBlueDog Feb 2012 #29
Spam deleted by cyberswede (MIR Team) safghjtykt Feb 2012 #30
I'm confused.... unkachuck Feb 2012 #32
What the big deal, Dems do it all the time Nexus7 Feb 2012 #33
Just how are the unions to blame?? Sadie5 Feb 2012 #39
Pl don't transfer the blame Nexus7 Feb 2012 #43
You are completely mistaken about Chicago proud2BlibKansan Feb 2012 #48
Thanks. It is refreshing to hear from someone who actually knows what is happening. olegramps Feb 2012 #59
You're ignoring the main point I made about the union Nexus7 Feb 2012 #72
I have no problem with that proud2BlibKansan Feb 2012 #76
For 12 years,... MarianJack Feb 2012 #34
the founding fathers of this country believed in public education madrchsod Feb 2012 #36
LOL Skittles Feb 2012 #38
Keep talking, Ricky boy, Lex Feb 2012 #41
Projection - that's what republicans want, and are doing. Our best are a century beyond that. saras Feb 2012 #42
Go Little Ricky. Be the nominee. Obama/Democrat Landslide. onehandle Feb 2012 #44
IMO education required for the 21st century, heavy in math and the traditional sciences, RKP5637 Feb 2012 #45
So How Does Bashing Factory Workers DallasNE Feb 2012 #46
Privatizing public schools and prisons ProfessionalLeftist Feb 2012 #47
Time to move into the Sweatshop Era. nt eppur_se_muova Feb 2012 #49
The Ayatollah Santorum, Holy Leader of the American Right, has spoken. pangaia Feb 2012 #50
Truthfully, I don't see any need for Arne Duncan to step down..... Smarmie Doofus Feb 2012 #51
Ding ding ding! Most useful post in thread saras Feb 2012 #54
Yeah, he's such a great example of a well rounded education lunatica Feb 2012 #52
little neighbor hood schools were due to lack of people and transportation Progressive dog Feb 2012 #53
i.e. all those teachers get paid too much Enrique Feb 2012 #55
Fuck you, Frothy. Zoeisright Feb 2012 #60
Wow... chervilant Feb 2012 #62
Romanticizing the 19th century as usual treestar Feb 2012 #64
''and like factories, schools have no place in America--they belong in China!'' yurbud Feb 2012 #66
rick and arne agree. Jakes Progress Feb 2012 #68
Better than being stuck in the dark ages. "Pies lesu Domine. Dona eis requiem" HopeHoops Feb 2012 #69
the Surge-on General recommends .... marasinghe Feb 2012 #83
He attacks "minority" education tooeyeten Feb 2012 #70
hey Rick, get a clue --- the federal gov. does not run schools wordpix Feb 2012 #71
Most presidents homeschooled their children in the White House? SheilaT Feb 2012 #73
home schooling cannot work Kber Feb 2012 #74
Is he running, or just proselytizing? piltdownman Feb 2012 #75
If this guy gets the nomination the R brand will be poison for a generation. Nobody who isn't white Monk06 Feb 2012 #77
I thought no teabagger could ever be crazier than Bachmann but.. workinclasszero Feb 2012 #79
Well! Thank God we're no longer in the modern industrial era! burning rain Feb 2012 #81
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