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happyslug

(14,779 posts)
58. One aspect of treatment is NOT to discourage people to seek treatment
Tue Sep 17, 2013, 08:59 PM
Sep 2013

If someone is afraid that the police will take away his guns if he seeks help, he will NOT seek help. On the other hand if he is told the Police will NOT do that, they often agree to seek help. I have run across this situation, it is more common then people think. I have had clients who refused to seek help that they needed for fear that the police would use them getting help to take away their guns and cars (and other freedoms). To get them to agree to treatment, I have seen Psychologists and other have to repeat that statement over and over, I have seen judges have to say that to a person.

Remember Competency is a very minimal standard, do you know who you are and are NOT causing any HARM to yourself or others. If that is true, you are competent and can refuse treatment. Without treatment there is no record of your problems so no grounds to restrict that person's freedoms.

Thus one of the problems of getting data on people is they refusal to seek help. Thus to get them to agree, we often have to agree that the results of the treatment will NOT be used against that person.

Now, if the person did an previous act of violence, that is a different ball game, but in such cases the burden of proof is on the state and is almost as strict as if you are charging the person with a crime. Those cases are rarely the one we are debating. The issue are the people whose prior acts are NOT that violent AND everyone involved thinks the person needs treatment.

This is the other side of the argument, how do you encourage people to seek help, when they feel that seeking such help will cost them a freedom they hold dear? This is true of being on the streets, owning a gun or driving a car. Thus a lot of people who need help only will seek it if such help will NOT be used against them in obtaining firearms. Do we what them to get help? Hopefully the answer to that question is yes. Once you say you want to encourage such people to seek help, punishing them for doing so has to be avoided. Furthermore it is PUNISHMENT as these people see it, not as you or I see it. Once you accept those unpleasant facts, the present system is the best of a series of bad options.

Footnote: One of the problem with such people is that when most of the old Sanitariums were closed they were to be replaced by neighborhood half way houses (more permanent then criminal half way houses, with some residents staying in the house the rest of their lives). This was part of the plan closing of those old Sanitariums that was never done, for it would cost money. Such treatment center and community housing would permit have permitted better integration with the community AND a place people with mental restriction could be housed safely. Implemented only in part and it is one of the great failure over the last 40-50 years.

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And yet he legally owned guns and passed a security check. appleannie1 Sep 2013 #1
Prosecute mainstreetonce Sep 2013 #2
+1 glinda Sep 2013 #41
The very same billh58 Sep 2013 #5
One aspect of treatment is NOT to discourage people to seek treatment happyslug Sep 2013 #58
There needs to be a way to track individuals like this. nt hack89 Sep 2013 #3
People are freaking out because they think NSA is reading their email to Aunt Martha. MADem Sep 2013 #8
That was one of NY state's solutions to Newtown. hack89 Sep 2013 #22
+1000 Trillo Sep 2013 #31
I was just informed by the V.A. that they performed one on me recently glinda Sep 2013 #42
There is more than enough "tracking" already being done in this country, thank you very much.... Blue_Tires Sep 2013 #20
Agreed 1000%. Myrina Sep 2013 #35
Navy Yard gunman treated for paranoia and hearing voices in his head Snake Plissken Sep 2013 #4
Yeah, thank Christ a guy like this could get all the guns he wanted. Paladin Sep 2013 #6
He was a "good guy with a gun" until tblue Sep 2013 #21
Untreated schizophrenia, then? MADem Sep 2013 #7
Sounds like a member of a well regulated militia Botany Sep 2013 #9
Several "opportunities" to do checks all failed.So WHO let him through? glinda Sep 2013 #43
Good question. nt MADem Sep 2013 #53
Schizophrenia is disordered thinking NOT hearing voices or being paranoid happyslug Sep 2013 #54
Oh, dear.........where to begin...... kestrel91316 Sep 2013 #56
You use the terms "often" happyslug Sep 2013 #61
Well, I've known a couple--more than a couple, four, to be precise-- of schizophrenics. MADem Sep 2013 #60
Was it the voice of Wayne LaPierre? nt onehandle Sep 2013 #10
+1 TheCowsCameHome Sep 2013 #13
The VA will take the rap for this... BadtotheboneBob Sep 2013 #11
I wonder if he was off his meds? Mojorabbit Sep 2013 #24
If he was prescribed them, it's quite possible... BadtotheboneBob Sep 2013 #26
Unless he was in a facility and was being supervised or even forcibly given his meds, kestrel91316 Sep 2013 #57
This message was self-deleted by its author Daniel537 Sep 2013 #12
Who would want a gun more than a paranoid? caseymoz Sep 2013 #14
I have always said it is actually EASY to establish a list of people who shouldn't have guns. Jackpine Radical Sep 2013 #15
Snowden probably could provide us with that. onehandle Sep 2013 #18
He picked up the ar-15 and pistol from victim(s) Guaguacoa Sep 2013 #16
Yep. All it takes is one legal gun to 'stop a good guy with a gun,' and take his gun. onehandle Sep 2013 #17
I'm not trying to be a wiseguy and Guaguacoa Sep 2013 #25
He used a run-of-the-mill hunting shotgun NickB79 Sep 2013 #29
He bought the shotgun within the last week. onehandle Sep 2013 #30
He waited a week before going onto the base NickB79 Sep 2013 #32
No. Maintain that extensive background checks be required for purchases of ALL guns. Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2013 #38
Shotguns require background checks in the US.nt Guaguacoa Sep 2013 #47
No ar-15 used according to the la times. Guaguacoa Sep 2013 #48
Well, yes actually philosslayer Sep 2013 #50
Untreated schizophrenics shouldnt' be allowed within 100 ft of a gun, let alone own or possess one. kestrel91316 Sep 2013 #59
all these big contractors, corps like HP, are encouraged to hire our returning Vets first Sunlei Sep 2013 #19
And the need for more health care before something happens. freshwest Sep 2013 #23
Were the voices in his head The Wizard Sep 2013 #27
"Give that man as many guns as he wants!" Gungeoneer logic. nt valerief Sep 2013 #28
Because there are so many here saying exactly that. hack89 Sep 2013 #33
He was in my area last month acting crazy hack89 Sep 2013 #34
Oh great, the new Manchurians ... Myrina Sep 2013 #36
As a retired Navy officer I am curious what you mean by that statement. nt hack89 Sep 2013 #37
What an obtuse and senseless remark. MADem Sep 2013 #40
And how exactly do you "know" our military? BadtotheboneBob Sep 2013 #46
Ohferchristsakes Myrina Sep 2013 #49
Offachrissake, indeed. You said a woefully misinformed and cruel thing that deeply offended MADem Sep 2013 #52
Yeah... BadtotheboneBob Sep 2013 #55
I would not object to a brain-scan on him seriously..... glinda Sep 2013 #44
Most of the victims were civilians, between the ages of 43 and 73. MADem Sep 2013 #39
Perhaps he was intentionally selecting older people unless kiranon Sep 2013 #45
Who knows? I think the guy was unmedicated and not thinking straight. For all we know those MADem Sep 2013 #51
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