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AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)

86. Idunno.

Reply to loli phabay (Reply #57)

Sat Oct 19, 2013, 01:37 AM

Oct 2013

Doesn't really pass the smell test.

Has all the hallmarks of an abduction in any other society I am aware of.

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Greek police appeal over mystery blonde girl [View all] Turborama Oct 2013 OP

I want to hear from the Roma family before considering judgment. delrem Oct 2013 #1

What exactly is it that you want to hear? LisaL Oct 2013 #2

I want to know the history! delrem Oct 2013 #6

DNA testing in conjunction with lack of legal paperwork pnwmom Oct 2013 #10

what legal paperwork, you realise that adoption has been part of rom culture for centuries loli phabay Oct 2013 #15

They need documentation as much as anyone else. pnwmom Oct 2013 #22

no they dont, only if they want to walk amongst outsiders. you would be surprised at how loli phabay Oct 2013 #27

They are living among "outsiders" and filing paperwork pnwmom Oct 2013 #31

hence using fake names etc, its culturally unacceptable to reveal real names to outsiders loli phabay Oct 2013 #36

In their minds they are not. But to the "outsiders" they are. pnwmom Oct 2013 #39

unlike you i dont assume she is not rom, no idea how you can deduce that loli phabay Oct 2013 #51

The "parents" are liars. They've given at least three different accounts pnwmom Oct 2013 #54

they are not going to tell the authoriies the truth, it will need intervention by someone with loli phabay Oct 2013 #57

Then they can rot in jail, and I hope they do. n/t pnwmom Oct 2013 #59

Idunno. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #86

could be, but other societies use paperwork and the court system loli phabay Oct 2013 #99

They should go to jail then get the red out Oct 2013 #227

in some ways they dont, to drop a name without dispensation is worse than jail loli phabay Oct 2013 #229

They sound lawless get the red out Oct 2013 #231

no, just having to live within two sets of laws that are at odds sometimes loli phabay Oct 2013 #234

They have choices get the red out Oct 2013 #236

i guess that counts for most minority cultures that dont conform to the majority loli phabay Oct 2013 #240

Lawlessness is what is damaging get the red out Oct 2013 #242

and that is exactly what happens, when a law comes along that conflicts loli phabay Oct 2013 #244

This group needs to fucking grow up get the red out Oct 2013 #246

i guess native americans and other indigenous peoples could be said to be the same loli phabay Oct 2013 #249

Nope get the red out Oct 2013 #251

can you say for certainty that tjere are none in these communities loli phabay Oct 2013 #254

"the right to say nothing when suspected of a crime" jberryhill Oct 2013 #297

The "parents" are being charged in Greek court. MADem Oct 2013 #142

i would not trust a greek court, unfortunately there has been a bias in the system loli phabay Oct 2013 #153

Your comments on this thread have been pretty egregious. I say that with all the restraint I can MADem Oct 2013 #155

well tell the EU human rights commission that you are okay with the greek system loli phabay Oct 2013 #156

No need to reply twice to one post--but I am sure the EU human rights commission agrees that child MADem Oct 2013 #174

and yet there is nothing to say this child was trafficked or even abused loli phabay Oct 2013 #176

Her DNA says she was trafficked.Stop defending the indefensible. This isn't "culture" it is CRIME nt MADem Oct 2013 #182

wow, so dna says she was trafficked, is this from csi or something loli phabay Oct 2013 #193

It's basic science--no "CSI" needed. MADem Oct 2013 #195

well as you seem to be buried i am digging to help you out loli phabay Oct 2013 #199

They said they got the child as a newborn in 2009. However, the kid was one or two in 2009. MADem Oct 2013 #200

if she was being groomed then good shes out, problem is i dont trust the greek authorities loli phabay Oct 2013 #201

These people were thieves and criminals. MADem Oct 2013 #203

once again you are talking past me, i have said i hope the child gets resolution loli phabay Oct 2013 #205

The child was dumped or stolen or taken as payment for a debt. Pick one. MADem Oct 2013 #207

your lack of either understanding the adoption process or complete lack of learning loli phabay Oct 2013 #209

If you live in a country, abiding by their laws is not "optional." MADem Oct 2013 #217

Thank you get the red out Oct 2013 #230

You are very welcome. MADem Oct 2013 #233

I can't abide throwing children to the wolves get the red out Oct 2013 #238

and yet you say nothing about post saying eradicating rom culture. loli phabay Oct 2013 #158

Allowing criminals to run free is not "eradicating 'rom' culture." MADem Oct 2013 #169

very telling when the phrase those folks is used, also your use of them loli phabay Oct 2013 #170

Very telling when you try to use accusations of bigotry to defend child trafficking. MADem Oct 2013 #178

if you dont know how to use google then you need more than my help loli phabay Oct 2013 #179

It's a computer term on Google, not a way to describe a culture/ethnicity. Nice try--but fail. nt MADem Oct 2013 #181

try harder, its there, loli phabay Oct 2013 #192

You made the claim, you need to prove it. No one is going to do your homework for you. MADem Oct 2013 #196

lol, no you are the one with the extensive interaction from living in europe who makes a claim loli phabay Oct 2013 #197

And I am telling you--you made up that term. It's Roma, not 'rom'--you're trying to pretend MADem Oct 2013 #204

accuse all you want, if you have not the ability to do a simple search beyond the first google page loli phabay Oct 2013 #206

You have that ability--so exercise it, go on, I dare ya. If you won't do it, we know why. MADem Oct 2013 #208

onve again if you dont have the ability then admit it, i am sure someone will help you loli phabay Oct 2013 #210

I obviously do, but you made the claim with your use of the word. Now find a link or I will MADem Oct 2013 #211

lol. no you are the one who has a problem and accusations with the word loli phabay Oct 2013 #212

Sorry--you're the one that can't prove the point you made with your own words. MADem Oct 2013 #213

lol, yes you and others, in your dreams loli phabay Oct 2013 #214

It's not "my dreams." You can't prove the point you made. That's the bottom line. MADem Oct 2013 #215

really, are you this daft that you cant click on page two or pull up wiki or something loli phabay Oct 2013 #216

Now you resort to personal insult by calling me "daft." Clearly, since you're the "smart one" here MADem Oct 2013 #218

really, you seem to believe i made up a word, accuse me of it and then cant even loli phabay Oct 2013 #220

I don't "seem to believe" anything. You keep telling me this is a standard word, and I want you to MADem Oct 2013 #221

once again you speak of otjers, no doubt they have the wherewithal to look it up loli phabay Oct 2013 #222

No--I speak of YOU. You said it, now prove it is a real word. A simple link will do. nt MADem Oct 2013 #223

i am sorry but there something not right with you loli phabay Oct 2013 #224

More insults--and still you fail to prove your point. We know you by your works. nt MADem Oct 2013 #225

Traveler? bitchkitty Oct 2013 #301

well few use the term gypsy unless talking to gaje, traveler is much the same loli phabay Oct 2013 #302

FYI- "Rom" is a commonly used designation Eyerish Oct 2013 #294

Thank you for doing that, and for not calling me daft or other insults. nt MADem Oct 2013 #295

No confirmation that she was actually forced to beg. moriah Oct 2013 #171

How disgusting. Your apologies are indefensible. MADem Oct 2013 #175

I'm confused then, because an article said 14 children were registered.... moriah Oct 2013 #177

The arrested "parents" might also be "farmers." MADem Oct 2013 #180

Yes.... but social services scams are also very common. moriah Oct 2013 #185

Who in the USA is taught to lie like that? Who in USA doesn't have documents? MADem Oct 2013 #186

The closest I can think of is also very viscerally disturbing to me.... moriah Oct 2013 #187

Very similar--child traffickers. Slavers. Didn't they have some success with the children who had MADem Oct 2013 #189

I agree with you on them get the red out Oct 2013 #235

I do, too, but have you read many of the books by ex-members? moriah Oct 2013 #268

this thread on a progessive board just confirms the need to hold secrets loli phabay Oct 2013 #269

It looks like child trafficking to me Aerows Oct 2013 #188

Agree wholeheartedly....It does to me, too. MADem Oct 2013 #191

So it's ok if they don't obey laws get the red out Oct 2013 #226

you know why theres no participation in stuff like the census and paperwork loli phabay Oct 2013 #228

Then that needs to be changed get the red out Oct 2013 #232

what you are calling for is the death of the culture, i dont believe you mean loli phabay Oct 2013 #237

To obey the law is to give up identity? get the red out Oct 2013 #239

not if that law is engineered to destroy the culture, this has not all happened in a vacuum loli phabay Oct 2013 #243

We are talking NOW get the red out Oct 2013 #245

you do know that greece actually has laws that are set up to discriminate loli phabay Oct 2013 #248

While there might be plenty of "brown skinned" parents with blonde children, this girl is not LisaL Oct 2013 #11

adoption is a common practice and very common among the different families loli phabay Oct 2013 #12

Then the child is genetically linked to someone, which this child is not. pnwmom Oct 2013 #25

okay when i use the word family it is in the rom sense of the word loli phabay Oct 2013 #38

Why should they be any more exempt from the laws pnwmom Oct 2013 #42

makes sense Niceguy1 Oct 2013 #103

there are a lot of misconceptions and some downright bigoted lies about the culture loli phabay Oct 2013 #104

Why do you defend these criminals? Scairp Oct 2013 #143

once again the kinder face of bigotry is shown in a post loli phabay Oct 2013 #146

Whatever Scairp Oct 2013 #161

Glad you're such an expert philosslayer Oct 2013 #162

Post removed Post removed Oct 2013 #219

Bottom line get the red out Oct 2013 #241

in what way is being a rom not a full person, i agree with yoi if she was going to be loli phabay Oct 2013 #247

I should have said better opportunities get the red out Oct 2013 #250

like all cultires there is women and child abuse, but there is a misconception loli phabay Oct 2013 #253

It does prove that the child is not related to them Yo_Mama Oct 2013 #131

the cops should, but as i said in another post adoption within the community is different loli phabay Oct 2013 #148

Apparently they gave conflicting claims Scootaloo Oct 2013 #3

hoo boy. I'm finding the responses ... , well, you know. delrem Oct 2013 #13

The "parents" said they found the baby in blanket. Or that pnwmom Oct 2013 #66

You're very fast and furious in your judgment. I'm not. So we're different. delrem Oct 2013 #70

She wouldn't have been taken from them if it was a legal adoption pnwmom Oct 2013 #7

These are Roma. Think about it. delrem Oct 2013 #8

They're not being accused because they're Roma. pnwmom Oct 2013 #18

it could very well be a legal adoption, within the rules of the family loli phabay Oct 2013 #14

It is very unlikely a legal adoption. Here is the info from that article: pnwmom Oct 2013 #19

your definition of legal differs from the familys in rom culture, everything is done in house loli phabay Oct 2013 #23

Then these people can tell the police who the child is genetically pnwmom Oct 2013 #26

no idea in this case, but how exactly do you track down any individual family loli phabay Oct 2013 #30

I don't know. That's a risk they decided to take, assuming pnwmom Oct 2013 #34

thats the cultural difference, you need a signed document and courts behind you to do a deal loli phabay Oct 2013 #41

I'm saying that they no more deserve exemption from the laws pnwmom Oct 2013 #44

not disagreeing but when does laws collide with culture, what should win loli phabay Oct 2013 #47

The laws should win. Otherwise, we open the door to situations pnwmom Oct 2013 #49

and this the reason why you are an outsider, and the rom wander loli phabay Oct 2013 #53

Cults always want to be left alone, but that isn't a reason to allow them pnwmom Oct 2013 #61

seems that you believe that you are superior than the rom, kinda.sad to see this kind of bigotry loli phabay Oct 2013 #62

I believe in the rule of law and the protection of children. pnwmom Oct 2013 #65

Fucking ridiculous. bitchkitty Oct 2013 #74

you seem to have missed every post i made, also the one likening white supremacists loli phabay Oct 2013 #77

And you seem to have missed a very bitchkitty Oct 2013 #96

This artcle says they aren't sure on that one... moriah Oct 2013 #163

+1 nt MADem Oct 2013 #141

Thank you get the red out Oct 2013 #260

...the banning of use of language or being forced to learn stuff against a kids culture. delrem Oct 2013 #79

i honestly think its just ignorance of the real bigotry that goes on in many loli phabay Oct 2013 #82

A minority culture that permits Diego_Native 2012 Oct 2013 #106

you know who else called for the eradication, well you are known for the company you keep loli phabay Oct 2013 #107

And you are an apologist for child abuse. Nice company you keep, too. Ikonoklast Oct 2013 #120

not at all, as i said in another post they have to find where the child came from loli phabay Oct 2013 #121

Damn it, Godwin! n/t moriah Oct 2013 #151

not sure if it counts as a godwin when someone actually uses the same language loli phabay Oct 2013 #152

What makes them a cult is the insiders/outsiders view that pnwmom Oct 2013 #110

That is a double edged sword. delta17 Oct 2013 #277

What does that have to do with a case of possible kidnapping? pnwmom Oct 2013 #109

Just because a practice is part of a culture tabasco Oct 2013 #144

there are definetly darker sides to any culture, but the adoption rules in rom society are a good loli phabay Oct 2013 #149

To deny the protection of Greek laws to this child Yo_Mama Oct 2013 #134

greek laws dont protect rom children, the EU has major problems with many greek laws loli phabay Oct 2013 #136

Well, "rom culture" doesn't trump Greek law. The parents are abductors until they can cough up MADem Oct 2013 #140

problem is there will be no paperwork, there seldom is loli phabay Oct 2013 #147

No ticket, no laundry. They manage to record births to get child benefits. Funny how they can MADem Oct 2013 #183

ah guilty until proven innocent, now i get you loli phabay Oct 2013 #194

That's right--guilty until they can prove they have a right to that child, who isn't even the age MADem Oct 2013 #198

The Rom try to play both sides of the street ripcord Oct 2013 #165

broadbrushing, if one member of a minority does something does that mean all members do the same loli phabay Oct 2013 #166

Reminds me of Warren Jeffs Renew Deal Oct 2013 #284

no, he was a nut who abused people, unless you believe that every rom family loli phabay Oct 2013 #286

I'm going off of your description Renew Deal Oct 2013 #287

different reasons involved, you know why kids are adopted loli phabay Oct 2013 #289

Why would a natural parent dye a young childs hair? justice1 Oct 2013 #116

kids get it done all the time, in this case it could very well be to hide the child loli phabay Oct 2013 #118

"A DNA test on the two alleged abductors showed they were not the girl's biological parents." Turborama Oct 2013 #21

Well, then, let's just hang the fuckers. nt delrem Oct 2013 #24

Why is it so hard to believe they could have kidnapped her? pnwmom Oct 2013 #28

she could very well be a kidnap victim, problem is if she is rom then finding her family loli phabay Oct 2013 #32

That's why they're publicizing her picture across the world. pnwmom Oct 2013 #37

Then that will be a problem for the rom. The alternative is to say pnwmom Oct 2013 #46

well the law has never done much good for rom in the past, one of the reasons for not loli phabay Oct 2013 #48

True. The law doesn't do them any good if they want to be free pnwmom Oct 2013 #50

the same laws that have been used to persecute for centuries, yeah lets trust that. loli phabay Oct 2013 #56

All children deserve the protection of the law. They shouldn't pnwmom Oct 2013 #58

+100000 JustAnotherGen Oct 2013 #102

Who said anything about capital punishment? n/t Turborama Oct 2013 #29

Me. n/t delrem Oct 2013 #73

Yep, you're the only person who has. n/t Turborama Oct 2013 #78

so? what's your point in pushing this button, Turborama? delrem Oct 2013 #80

Why provide the button in the 1st place, delrem? Turborama Oct 2013 #83

I didn't. delrem Oct 2013 #85

Your sarcastic reply was a non-sequitur Turborama Oct 2013 #92

So you think they should be exexuted? Crunchy Frog Oct 2013 #94

much depends if she is from another family or an outsider loli phabay Oct 2013 #4

Well she certainly is from another family. LisaL Oct 2013 #5

i worded that wrong, i mean from another rom family, adoption etc is very common within nations loli phabay Oct 2013 #9

I don't think some people apply the same general civilized standard to the Roma. delrem Oct 2013 #16

i dont think they get that written contracts are not used, for to write yoir name is not done loli phabay Oct 2013 #20

I am curious... DURHAM D Oct 2013 #40

its just a different spelling, one i am more used to using, also i would use rrom as well. loli phabay Oct 2013 #45

Why did they dye this girl's hair, except to cover up the fact pnwmom Oct 2013 #69

Uh, culture, see? bitchkitty Oct 2013 #95

Then they should prove it. Get one of the "big men" to testify pnwmom Oct 2013 #67

Then they could solve this very easily by identifying the biological parents jeff47 Oct 2013 #261

I'm looking at the obvious difference in hair color. It seems, especially in her braids, that okaawhatever Oct 2013 #17

It might just be dirty. She doesn't look very clean (clothes, hands, etc). LisaL Oct 2013 #33

Good point. You can really see it in this one, too... Turborama Oct 2013 #35

Ooh, yep. It also looks reddish brown in this pic. I wonder if that's due to the color fading nt okaawhatever Oct 2013 #43

She looks a bit like Maddy McCann wickerwoman Oct 2013 #296

I too focused on exactly that Samantha Oct 2013 #55

I'm wondering if they can estimate when the hair was dyed based on growth rate. They okaawhatever Oct 2013 #64

I think that would be definitely possible Samantha Oct 2013 #84

That's what I thought, too. Her hair was dyed. nt pnwmom Oct 2013 #68

The parents say they found the baby in a blanket. Or that strangers pnwmom Oct 2013 #52

theres a cultural difference thats important in this and its that they wont tell the authorities loli phabay Oct 2013 #60

That's their problem. Their culture demands that they lie, pnwmom Oct 2013 #63

So, they think they are above the law? If they have nothing to hide then they have no reason to lie. Turborama Oct 2013 #71

not above but outside, there are other laws they are beholden to loli phabay Oct 2013 #72

So it's a sort of voluntary dictatorship of the big men. pnwmom Oct 2013 #75

Sounds just like Warren Jeffs and the FDLS. nt. delta17 Oct 2013 #282

As Gloria Steinem said, pnwmom Oct 2013 #283

Above/outside means the same thing when it comes to the law. Especially when it comes to children Turborama Oct 2013 #76

its complex but i will give it a go loli phabay Oct 2013 #81

This isn't about begging in general. This particular girl was begging pnwmom Oct 2013 #89

Thanks for explaining. Unfortunately, children being trafficked and forced to beg is a reality Turborama Oct 2013 #93

not disagreeing with you, but pointing out that we dont know in this case loli phabay Oct 2013 #98

No one here accused all Rom of kidnapping. Just the purported "parents" pnwmom Oct 2013 #112

Does it really have to be a big man, or can it be an older short dude at 110 pounds? snooper2 Oct 2013 #167

lol, thanks for the laugh. its just a term for the head man and yes he can be short. lol loli phabay Oct 2013 #168

Nutcase religious sects use that very same excuse to hide child abuse. Ikonoklast Oct 2013 #119

slam it all you want, but i see calls for eradication. seems some people would be happy with loli phabay Oct 2013 #122

Bullshit. Sheldon Cooper Oct 2013 #126

erm you need to read the post that actually uses the word. loli phabay Oct 2013 #127

That sounds like a convenient way to excuse kidnapping Renew Deal Oct 2013 #285

no, its the law and experience with dealing with the authorities loli phabay Oct 2013 #288

Wow. I hope they find her parents. Poor girl. SunSeeker Oct 2013 #87

what ethnicity does she look like JI7 Oct 2013 #88

I wouldn't even guess dipsydoodle Oct 2013 #90

plus if she is from a traveler family the chances are remote that they are on the internet loli phabay Oct 2013 #101

she could be rom, slav, anglo saxon, spanish, norwegian, turk, hell any ethnicity loli phabay Oct 2013 #100

Why were they dying her hair then? pnwmom Oct 2013 #114

because blondes are still rare so she would stand out, and it's been confirmed she is not their JI7 Oct 2013 #138

I agree with you they were trying to hide her pnwmom Oct 2013 #139

where exactly are blondes rare, genuine question loli phabay Oct 2013 #150

among Roma and some other groups JI7 Oct 2013 #154

blonde as well as red hair is fairley common amongst the rom, lots of northern travelers loli phabay Oct 2013 #157

this was in greece and the family she was did not look like her JI7 Oct 2013 #159

i got that, but amongst the families you will find rom from all parts loli phabay Oct 2013 #160

She has a Polish or Ukrainian face <nt> bigworld Oct 2013 #117

she does look as if she is from that region, could also be russian tsigan loli phabay Oct 2013 #125

if she is Russian Tsigan than I am a Ferengi. idwiyo Oct 2013 #256

how so, plenty of blonde blue eyed russians out there loli phabay Oct 2013 #257

Sure, there are. Sorry, am off to study rules of acquisition. idwiyo Oct 2013 #258

really, you have never seen a blonde blue eyed russian before loli phabay Oct 2013 #259

Russians and Tsigans are not the same people. Shouldn't you know such basic fact? idwiyo Oct 2013 #263

you know that tsigan are made from the peoples of the area they live in loli phabay Oct 2013 #265

But of course. Sorry, Rules of Acquisition call, too busy to waste my time on nonsense. idwiyo Oct 2013 #266

flippancy must be a ferengi currency loli phabay Oct 2013 #267

that's what she looked like to me also JI7 Oct 2013 #137

She looks Russian to me cpwm17 Oct 2013 #145

Ukrainian? Polish? HooptieWagon Oct 2013 #202

Gogol Bordello forum mimi85 Oct 2013 #91

After reading the thread, giving it a K&R in hopes that exposure Crunchy Frog Oct 2013 #97

This message was self-deleted by its author dipsydoodle Oct 2013 #105

continuing the libel that the rom kidnap children, it may in some cases but this feeds the loli phabay Oct 2013 #108

It wasn't my intention to draw an analogy. dipsydoodle Oct 2013 #111

yeah i know you were not, its not your style. i did not mean to imply you where loli phabay Oct 2013 #113

Yes, it may happen in some cases -- and this is one of them. pnwmom Oct 2013 #115

Wonder if they need a warrant for the DNA test treestar Oct 2013 #123

probuably would have enough to get one, the levels of probable cause are less in greece loli phabay Oct 2013 #124

I'd want to make sure the whole thing isn't some sort of set-up. Ken Burch Oct 2013 #128

either way, its time to break camp and head north. regardless of the outcome loli phabay Oct 2013 #129

It's not easy for them to just to 'break camp' and split Turborama Oct 2013 #133

its easier than you may believe, other members of their nation would take them in and help loli phabay Oct 2013 #135

The terminology you've been using is as if they are living a romantic lifestyle on the road... Turborama Oct 2013 #172

no a lot of rom have settled, but its ingrained that the long road is always there loli phabay Oct 2013 #173

They aren't fleeing anywhere--they are in jail now. MADem Oct 2013 #272

As can be seen in the photo, it is obvious why the police thought she looked out of place... Turborama Oct 2013 #273

Everyone criticizing people for getting annoyed at seeing children endangered should watch that MADem Oct 2013 #274

Sorry, I posted the other one as an update, but you are right. Turborama Oct 2013 #276

It's starting to look like they "bought" that child...at least that is what the neighbors say... MADem Oct 2013 #299

Their lawyer has said they took her in from a foreign stranger when she was a baby... Turborama Oct 2013 #130

could be, its not outside of the law to take a child in circumstances like that loli phabay Oct 2013 #132

I really don't think this is child trafficking. moriah Oct 2013 #164

No--as I said elsewhere, they could be farmers, raising livestock for eventual trafficking. MADem Oct 2013 #184

Post removed Post removed Oct 2013 #252

wow, just wow. loli phabay Oct 2013 #255

With the reputation of child traffickers? get the red out Oct 2013 #262

yet you hate a whole people because you believe they all do it loli phabay Oct 2013 #264

They are also victims of child trafficking. MADem Oct 2013 #271

Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2013 #190

Wow, from what I read about the Romani culture, it's pretty complex graywarrior Oct 2013 #270

yeah i am pretty much done with this thread, its not worth the aggro loli phabay Oct 2013 #275

There's a couple of documnetaries in this thread that give a good insight into their culture Turborama Oct 2013 #278

you realise the culture is so much more than what these shows show loli phabay Oct 2013 #279

Have you watched them? Turborama Oct 2013 #280

i disagree that it is the whole story of the rom, same as if i watched a story about loli phabay Oct 2013 #281

So, you haven't watched them yet, then Turborama Oct 2013 #290

until then what, or do you really believe the millions of rom are all trafficking theirnown kids loli phabay Oct 2013 #291

We can't discuss what's in them until then n/t Turborama Oct 2013 #292

but we can discuss the myths that some people believe and the bigotry out there loli phabay Oct 2013 #293

You're uninformed about what these "shows show" until you watch them. When/if you do, we can discuss Turborama Oct 2013 #298

no, you think this is the first time that anyone has ever discussed not just those shows loli phabay Oct 2013 #300

You jumped on me when I recommended watching something & are acting like you know what's in them Turborama Oct 2013 #303

well i apoligise if that is how it seemed, i never meant to challenge the veracity of loli phabay Oct 2013 #304

Actually, the one that I think you'd find most informative is the "This World" one Turborama Oct 2013 #306

A second case from Dublin intaglio Oct 2013 #305

Bumping for closure. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #307