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happyslug

(14,779 posts)
20. It is the right to property AND the Ban on States impairing contracts.
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 12:27 AM
Dec 2013

Last edited Fri Dec 6, 2013, 02:38 AM - Edit history (1)

First let me address the issue of Contract Law.

Under Article 1, Section 10, First paragraph of the US Constitution:

No State shall ... pass any ..... Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts,....

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html

A pension is a Contract, and often the result of a Union Contract, Thus under Article1, Section 10, First paragraph it is unconstitutional for Illinois to impair contracts, and given the Pensions were the result of Contracts (including the Contract to work for the State) Illinois can NOT reduce these pensions, The Courts will have the final say on this but it is complex for the actual case law is minimal for most States have avoided impairing Contracts ever since 1787.

Now to the second Argument, the taking of property:

Amendment V

No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html

Now Technically, the Fifth Amendment does NOT apply to the States, it is in the Federal Bill of Rights and as such Rights from the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Now, after the Civil War the Federal Government passed the 14th amendment:


AMENDMENT XIV

SECTION 1.

..... No state ... shall.... deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.;


http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv

It is through the 14th Amendment that the Bill of Rights is applied to the States, but in this case we can ignore the Fifth, for the 14th by its own language applies the same rule to the states directly.

Thus a question for the Courts will be is this reduction in Pensions a Taking of a Property Right without Compensation? Now the 14th does NOT mention Compensation, but the Courts have always recognize the right of the State to take property with compensating. The Courts have also order States to undo things it has done, that the Court found to be a "taking" of property and thus depraving a person of the right to use that property.

You have to understand the Courts have long ruled that a property right is any right based on a grant from the State. The deed to your home, is from a prior owner who received a deed from another prior owner and this goes back and back till we come to the first sale of that property from the State (or the Federal Government if the State was still a Territory) to someone. That sale was a Grant of a Right to property as set forth in that first deed. Every other seller after that sale, was only selling his right to that grant of property.

When it comes to Civil Service Jobs the Courts (both Federal and State) have viewed them as a Grant of Property from the State. The Job and pay was authorized by the State and as such is a grant of a property right to that job. The courts have long ruled that such grants of property did NOT include the right to sell the position (This the job can NOT be resold), but the courts have also long called it an legally enforceable property right. There are restrictions to that property right, for example the State can eliminate it and the job holder would be out of a job (but it has to be a real elimination, not one where the job is eliminated and another created that does the same thing).

Now, in higher position the positions tend to be Patronage positions and it is understood no permanent right to hold those position came with appointment to those position (i.e. elected official can pick the staff around them and Cabinet positions that direct where the Government is to go, but to the people who do the actual work, they can only be fired for Good Cause, i.e. they did something illegal).

Just a comment that if the Courts rule this reduction in the Pension is a taking of a property right, it will have to be either undone or otherwise paid for the lost of the Pension. That is if the State gets over the issue of impairment of Contracts. The Federal Government can impair contracts but the States can not under the US Constitution.

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Uh huh. More theft I see? I am surprised it has 337 views but no comments. I am not silvershadow Dec 2013 #1
Well, after all, what is there to say? Jackpine Radical Dec 2013 #2
oh yes...he`s already to go after the cities unions but.... madrchsod Dec 2013 #11
So I've heard. (nt) Jackpine Radical Dec 2013 #12
Theft? gussmith Dec 2013 #4
No theft is more accurate. They are earned benefits, after all. But thanks for silvershadow Dec 2013 #5
More like readjusting promises with reality. CFLDem Dec 2013 #8
The aren't promises, they are contracts. They are earned benefits, already due, already payable. nt silvershadow Dec 2013 #16
Thank you! A Little Weird Dec 2013 #17
Oh, thank you! (And, I'm just having a little fun with a t****. (Well, suspected anyway). silvershadow Dec 2013 #19
A bum could promise a million dollars CFLDem Dec 2013 #24
Wrong. The State of Illinois (as all other 49 states) is the victim of failed trade policies. silvershadow Dec 2013 #25
Hate Radio talking points come to DU Doctor_J Dec 2013 #30
These are NOT patronage positions, these are Civil Service Positions happyslug Dec 2013 #18
It's Illinois. CFLDem Dec 2013 #23
I have heard that of every state in the Union, and at any level, it is FALSE and always has been happyslug Dec 2013 #34
LOL Skittles Dec 2013 #6
Are You F---ing Kidding Me? chuckstevens Dec 2013 #7
most illinois state workers do pay into ss.... beachbum bob Dec 2013 #26
Third Way is GOP-lite. But it does fool enough Democratic voters. blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #3
Third Way was originally carla Dec 2013 #31
A great example of how NOT LIBERAL the 'Media' is in this country ... brett_jv Dec 2013 #9
you sound like some of the afscme workers i know.... madrchsod Dec 2013 #14
it will still have to go in front of the illinois supreme court madrchsod Dec 2013 #10
How is it a constitional question exactly? cstanleytech Dec 2013 #15
It is the right to property AND the Ban on States impairing contracts. happyslug Dec 2013 #20
my super republican senator who voted against used this as an argument in his newspaper editorial. madrchsod Dec 2013 #21
People forget about that ban on impairing contracts. happyslug Dec 2013 #22
state pensions covered under state constitution BUT beachbum bob Dec 2013 #27
If the pension is PRIVATE, you are correct, but these are from the State GOVERNMENT. happyslug Dec 2013 #32
illinois constitution has pension protections for state employees beachbum bob Dec 2013 #28
But the real issue is the FEDERAL CONSTITUTION happyslug Dec 2013 #33
my super republican state senator explained to me how it works in springfield madrchsod Dec 2013 #13
This is very true and has been going on for decades. apnu Dec 2013 #29
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