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happyslug

(14,779 posts)
32. If the pension is PRIVATE, you are correct, but these are from the State GOVERNMENT.
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 06:07 PM
Dec 2013

And thus the FEDERAL CONSTITUTION comes into play, as to Contracts and Property Rights. It is the FEDERAL CONSTITUTION that forbids the states from impairing Contract (States may have similar provisions, but they are NOT needed given the Supremacy of the US Constitution).

The courts have Long adopted the position that any "Grant of right" from any Government is a Right to property. This includes the right to stay in Public Housing (there is NO right to get into Public Housing, but once in, you can only be removed for "Good Cause" for otherwise you are denying that resident of Public Housing Their property right to lived in that Apartment. Now that right to housing once you are in does NOT extend to private Landlord Tenant law, for the right to live in such a private rental property is NOT a grant from the State, but from the owner of the property. Thus the States can pass laws making it much easier for Private landlords to evict a Tenant then any Public Housing Authority can.

I bring up Public housing for people do not think such housing is a "Property Right" but the courts have long adopted that policy, on the simple grounds that the Housing Agency is an Agency of the State and any grant of any right from that agency, including the right to live in a rental unit, is a grant from the State and thus a right to property (In the case of Public Housing the right to live in the unit as long as you want if you do not violate an other term of your lease).

The same thing with Pensions, State Pensions are Grants of Property rights (a pension) to State Employees as part of such employees CONTRACT to work for the state. Notice this applies to STATE pensions only NOT to private pensions, for Private Pensions are NOT grant of a Right to a Pension from the State. Thus property rights do NOT kick in to private pensions EXCEPT under the CONSTITUTIONAL ban for the State to Impair Contracts.

Now, the Federal Government does have the right to Impair Contracts, and thus it has been the Federal Bankruptcy Courts that have ordered the reduction in private Pensions payouts. The problem is there is NO provision in the Federal Bankruptcy Code for a State to File Bankruptcy. Local Government may file Bankruptcy, if permitted by State law to do so (Which was the holding of the Courts in California when some Municipalities filed Bankruptcy recently).

Thus the real issue can the State reduce its pension obligations? Given Pensions are not given freely, but part of the Contract to work, the Contract clause kicks in. Given the Pensions are a right from the state, it is also a property right. Even the Federal Government can NOT take away property without compensation, i.e. can NOT abolish a pension without paying the pension.

Now, the Federal Government CAN IMPAIR a contract, and has done so in Federal Bankruptcy Court and when you read about Pensions being reduced it is being done in Federal Bankruptcy Court (This includes times when it is a municipal Pension that is reduced).

Private pensions can be reduced by the parties (mostly in Federal Bankruptcy Court). I will NOT go into the debate if a State can file Federal Bankruptcy. The Bankruptcy act does permit local government to file bankruptcy, but the US Supreme Court has ruled that can be done ONLY if permitted by State law (in The Detroit Bankruptcy that is an issue, the Governor says he can give such permission, the union for the workers say such permission is NOT permitted under the State Constitution, Bankruptcy Court has rejected the Union's position, but let see what happens on appeal).

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Uh huh. More theft I see? I am surprised it has 337 views but no comments. I am not silvershadow Dec 2013 #1
Well, after all, what is there to say? Jackpine Radical Dec 2013 #2
oh yes...he`s already to go after the cities unions but.... madrchsod Dec 2013 #11
So I've heard. (nt) Jackpine Radical Dec 2013 #12
Theft? gussmith Dec 2013 #4
No theft is more accurate. They are earned benefits, after all. But thanks for silvershadow Dec 2013 #5
More like readjusting promises with reality. CFLDem Dec 2013 #8
The aren't promises, they are contracts. They are earned benefits, already due, already payable. nt silvershadow Dec 2013 #16
Thank you! A Little Weird Dec 2013 #17
Oh, thank you! (And, I'm just having a little fun with a t****. (Well, suspected anyway). silvershadow Dec 2013 #19
A bum could promise a million dollars CFLDem Dec 2013 #24
Wrong. The State of Illinois (as all other 49 states) is the victim of failed trade policies. silvershadow Dec 2013 #25
Hate Radio talking points come to DU Doctor_J Dec 2013 #30
These are NOT patronage positions, these are Civil Service Positions happyslug Dec 2013 #18
It's Illinois. CFLDem Dec 2013 #23
I have heard that of every state in the Union, and at any level, it is FALSE and always has been happyslug Dec 2013 #34
LOL Skittles Dec 2013 #6
Are You F---ing Kidding Me? chuckstevens Dec 2013 #7
most illinois state workers do pay into ss.... beachbum bob Dec 2013 #26
Third Way is GOP-lite. But it does fool enough Democratic voters. blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #3
Third Way was originally carla Dec 2013 #31
A great example of how NOT LIBERAL the 'Media' is in this country ... brett_jv Dec 2013 #9
you sound like some of the afscme workers i know.... madrchsod Dec 2013 #14
it will still have to go in front of the illinois supreme court madrchsod Dec 2013 #10
How is it a constitional question exactly? cstanleytech Dec 2013 #15
It is the right to property AND the Ban on States impairing contracts. happyslug Dec 2013 #20
my super republican senator who voted against used this as an argument in his newspaper editorial. madrchsod Dec 2013 #21
People forget about that ban on impairing contracts. happyslug Dec 2013 #22
state pensions covered under state constitution BUT beachbum bob Dec 2013 #27
If the pension is PRIVATE, you are correct, but these are from the State GOVERNMENT. happyslug Dec 2013 #32
illinois constitution has pension protections for state employees beachbum bob Dec 2013 #28
But the real issue is the FEDERAL CONSTITUTION happyslug Dec 2013 #33
my super republican state senator explained to me how it works in springfield madrchsod Dec 2013 #13
This is very true and has been going on for decades. apnu Dec 2013 #29
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