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happyslug

(14,779 posts)
87. The Army eliminated its last mules in 1956
Sun Jan 5, 2014, 05:02 AM
Jan 2014

Mules were liked for they could carry 400 pounds of supply and go any where a man can walk (i.e. it is only when men have to climb mountains that mules no longer followed armies). During WWII, the US Army used mules extensively in Italy, but these were Italian mules with Italian mule handlers (most had been trained by the Italian Army prior to WWII, and when Italy surrendered in 1943, defected to the Allied side).

In France, as the Allied force drove from the beachheads, it was hedgerow and hedgerow, once a hedgerow was taken additional ammunition could be brought in by truck, through some units found loose stock animals (that is what they claimed anyway) and used them to the same purpose. In may Father's unit the 81mm Section had mounted their 81mm mortars in some donkeys they had found,

The only place the US sent actual mules was Burma, for the simple reason British India did not have any. These mules were used to support General Sims Burma offensive. The troops were re supplied by the Air and Truck, but from the re supply point to the actual combat position, the supplies were hauled by mules. When a mules died, its cargo was divided among the men it was supporting.

Thus the US did not have to ship to many mules to Europe, till after WWII as part of the Marshall plan to rebuild Europe, then we shipped a LOT, more to replace the mules the Allies and the Axis powers had taken. Mules were so popular even after the war the when Mules were captured during the Korean War, units would NO turn them over to the General High Command, as they were ordered to do, but retained em for their own use. Trucks hauled those Mules to a lot of places in Korea (and had done the same in Italy and Burma).

After the mid 1950s the US decided that the US would abandoned the mule. There was opposition to this, but it was ignored. In 1956 the last 100 mule unit was replaced by a 10 helicopter unit and the Army said the Helicopter could haul more even to location mules could NOT reach at the cost of 2 million for each copter ($20 million for the 10 helicopters, PLUS about 10 million each year to keep them operating, as opposed to the 100 mules going for $4000 each, or $400,000 and good for 10-15 years.

The down side to getting away from mules was that, while the Helicopters could hall more supplies, they would drop off the supplies and go back to base. The Mules would have been with the unit the whole day. Some Commanders demanded Mules in Vietnam, for this reason, but they were over ruled.

The US Army plan to replace the mules, not only included Helicopters by the Adoption of the ALICE pack. During WWII, most soldiers went into combat with nothing more then a blanket role. A Shelter half (half of a tent), pegs and poles for the ten and two blankets. The infantry were trained to roll the two wool blankets inside the shelter half and that was how their slept at night. Next money they woke up, and depending on the expectations of Combat, either left their packs where they slept, of took them with them in a role from the left shoulder and tied to their right side (this left the right shoulder open to support the firing of their rifles). It appears the same blanket rolls were used in Korea (Through in the Winter of 1944-1945 the Troops were issued sleeping bags, and again during Korea's winter).

Now, much of the other equipment was carried on the truck that supported the platoon or Company and what ever other piece of transportation the solders were able to find and use.

AS I said above during the mobile parts of WWII and Korea the decision NOT to bring mules seems to be proven. The problem was when quick movement was NO longer possible and the US forces needed to protect their flanks away from the roads (One British Commander on seeing the US retreat after the Chinese intervention made the comment the US Army had forgotten how to fight away from roads and that is why the US was driven out of North Korea by the Chinese).

Thus by the mid 1950s it was clear the US needed to re-learn how to fight away from roads, the US Solution was Helicopters. The problem was how to survive from one Air drop to the next? THe Answer was they would divide up the ammunition required among each soldiers AND would issue each soldier an "ALICE" pack to carry those items, in additional to what the soldier needed, i.e. his shelter half and sleeping bag.

What was the soldier to carry in his ALICE pack AND on his person? His rifle, ammunition for his rifle, a spade, a Canteen, Chemical Warfare mask and a First Aid Kid. In his pack went his shelter half and his sleeping bag (The Sleeping bag was NOT issued in VIetnam, was not needed), went weather gear, Chemical Warfare uniform (Not issued in Vietnam and not issued in Iraq or Afghanistan) AND 1 BOX of 7.62mm Ammunition for the Companies machine guns, three rounds of 60mm Mortar Rounds for the Companies 60 mm Mortars, one 81 mm Mortar for the Battalion 81mm Mortar and a 50 caliber ammunition for the Battalions 50 caliber Machine gun. This would be needed if they went into combat. Notice no food, that was to come via the Helicopters OR trucks but when the unit was NOT in combat.

This tendency to have the troops haul what mules use to do pre 1956 is the primary reason the combat load to is so heavy.

Now, In Iraq and Afghanistan, they has been a rush to body armor that increases the weight a soldier has to carry. Our Soldiers are convinced this has saved lives, but that is ignoring the effect the armor has on performance i.e. it saved someone's life who if he did not have the armor would have MOVED faster through the danger zone. The high rates of wounded compared to dead seems to support the concept that the armor saved lives, but the bigger saver may be the new blood clotting material that makes would clot much faster the they did in previous wars. Deaths do to lost of blood is way down, and that is attributed to the clotting agents not the increase use of Armor. Thus, except for the helmet which has a solid record of saving lives, get rid of the Armor and see almost no change in combat losses. The armor is an additional 20-30 pounds. A good Argument can be made for the Body Armor, but I can also make a good argument to get rid of it for it is NOT as effective as saving lives as people think.

The electronic equipment is another area the troops should be stripped of. Platoons and Companies have Headquarters and anything electronics should be at that level only. Phones can be useful but they should be installed by the Headquarters NOT the squads.
"


What should an infantry man have on? The Following

1 Helmet
1 Protective mask
1 Rifle
1 Ammunition 300 round max (10 3 round magazine)'
1 spade, to dig improve combat positions
1 First aid Kit with tourniquet
1 Canteen


That is it. No body armor, to much weight, No night vision goggles, to much weight, no radio, to much weight. Now these should be available as needed, but keep at platoon or company level to be issued only as needed. 63 pounds is just to much for anyone to carry around. If you want infantrymen to carry such equipment, equip them with a mule or a bicycle to carry the excess weight.

Here is a story of one horse used like a Mule in Korea:
http://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck/video/sgt-reckless-korean-war-horse-hero
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergeant_Reckless

Even today, some people advocate bring back the Mule. The last open talk was at the end of the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan, they the US shipped mules to Pakistan so the Opposition to the then Communist Government of Afghanistan could sneak in man portable Ground to Air Missiles. At least on Congressman thought it was the US army buying mules, it turned out it was CIA. These mules seems to have stayed in Afghanistan to support the war against the Soviet backed Afghan government, till that Government collapsed.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

A good move philosslayer Jan 2014 #1
Doing three pull-ups is unreasonable? dbackjon Jan 2014 #2
Women obviously don't have the upper body strength of men philosslayer Jan 2014 #3
Bullcrap. I know many women that can do three pullups dbackjon Jan 2014 #4
I think you and I are on the same side here.... philosslayer Jan 2014 #9
Need upper body strength in Combat. former9thward Jan 2014 #12
That's the question treestar Jan 2014 #15
A lot hack89 Jan 2014 #18
Women were good haulers treestar Jan 2014 #34
You have to go where the enemy is hack89 Jan 2014 #37
And yet there are complaints about drones! treestar Jan 2014 #57
One wonders if the tens of thousands of Soviet women pressed into successful combat service during W LanternWaste Jan 2014 #60
Bet you most of those Russina women would have had no trouble with 3 little pull ups. Exultant Democracy Jan 2014 #68
It's interesting people don't recognize how unhealthy the american population is... Jesus Malverde Jan 2014 #91
Enough to click the mouse to drop the bomb from the drone warrant46 Jan 2014 #64
Number of pull-ups needed to pass the Army PT test: 0 jmowreader Jan 2014 #23
The Army does not have the standards of the Marines. former9thward Jan 2014 #27
Army standards Duckhunter935 Jan 2014 #30
The Marines don't have a pushup event on their PFT jmowreader Jan 2014 #56
Not all Army folks civillawyer Jan 2014 #40
Sure. Then, when they have to pull another Marine out of danger, tabasco Jan 2014 #32
I have heard that story so often it is getting me sick and I am male. happyslug Jan 2014 #50
It amazes me how suddenly when this subject of women comes up treestar Jan 2014 #78
My Father, a Normandy Combat vet, told me what he had to do with a wounded soldier happyslug Jan 2014 #85
By now there should be a specialized group with the job of treestar Jan 2014 #90
I take it you have never been in the military wercal Jan 2014 #106
Women could be trained to do it all treestar Jan 2014 #110
Your fixation with the weight of the gear is strange and misguided wercal Jan 2014 #114
Backpacker carry 40 pounds??? happyslug Jan 2014 #141
Well you have obviously done alot of research and scoured wiki articles for information wercal Jan 2014 #143
Those numbers are ridiculous and NOT supportable for any length of time happyslug Jan 2014 #148
You continue to exhibit an extreme lack of comprehension skills wercal Jan 2014 #150
Actually not quite true happyslug Jan 2014 #142
You're kidding right wercal Jan 2014 #145
You should read ACTUAL ARMY REPORTS, they do REPORT use of such people in such roles: happyslug Jan 2014 #147
You still are not understanding wercal Jan 2014 #149
We have had them since WWI, they are known as "Medics" in the Army happyslug Jan 2014 #140
Some men had trouble with the tank rounds wercal Jan 2014 #105
I was in the Field Artillery happyslug Jan 2014 #111
By a strange twist of fate, after my time as a tanker, I was a 4.2 In Mortar Platoon Leader wercal Jan 2014 #116
One of the problem with women is they are NOT men, and most women do NOT have the training of men happyslug Jan 2014 #130
This argument brings up two things treestar Jan 2014 #71
pretty misogynist remark there. canuckledragger Jan 2014 #6
I'm sorry? philosslayer Jan 2014 #8
that is why males still have to do more Duckhunter935 Jan 2014 #10
Shouldn't it be the same for both? dbackjon Jan 2014 #13
no argument here Duckhunter935 Jan 2014 #19
i think there is also a question of the purpose of the standard. thesquanderer Jan 2014 #29
The job needs you to do pull-ups treestar Jan 2014 #35
Lol! n/t PasadenaTrudy Jan 2014 #45
I cry bullshit also Scairp Jan 2014 #98
If I recall correctly, the Presidential Physical Fitness Award requires the same. 1000words Jan 2014 #5
I couldn't do the three in elementary school (and I'm male) thesquanderer Jan 2014 #28
I can do three pull ups. AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #7
only one of the standards Duckhunter935 Jan 2014 #11
So, skip it, or do a weighted average between multiple measures or something. AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #16
easy? Duckhunter935 Jan 2014 #20
If there's anything the miltiary loves, it's graphs, tables, curves and shit. AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #22
I can't wait to see men in childbirth! MADem Jan 2014 #52
All they need to be able to do is pull a trigger. Mysterysouppe Jan 2014 #44
And carry very heavy loads ..... Nt hack89 Jan 2014 #51
they did that in our school system. too many kids failing tests so they dumbed down leftyohiolib Jan 2014 #152
Half of them could do it treestar Jan 2014 #14
Here's a link to an earlier discussion A Little Weird Jan 2014 #17
No one Drew2510 Jan 2014 #21
Funny, a female soldier was truly called upon as a necessity ... Deny and Shred Jan 2014 #24
Yes and a few women crack up Drew2510 Jan 2014 #31
Ok, but acknowledge many women HAVE put up with the strain ... Deny and Shred Jan 2014 #36
Oh yes, without question. I have had the honor Drew2510 Jan 2014 #38
Actually, also in three wars. Rozlee Jan 2014 #54
I'm impressed. But, Drew2510 Jan 2014 #58
Three wars? You have my utmost respect and gratitude! pinboy3niner Jan 2014 #134
Thank you for YOUR service. Rozlee Jan 2014 #137
The dead hang pull up has always been a problem for many females madville Jan 2014 #25
I concur sir. Meanwhile,there Drew2510 Jan 2014 #33
They don't do dead hang pull ups, the females do flex arm pull ups. 4bucksagallon Jan 2014 #39
Hummmm. Been out of touch for a while, but Drew2510 Jan 2014 #41
Check this if you want to know the difference. 4bucksagallon Jan 2014 #43
Huge difference 1000words Jan 2014 #42
Do some research, they changed the standards madville Jan 2014 #55
Did they propose the new plan in order that women would fail? alarimer Jan 2014 #26
Ah, excuse me but many women are failing now so what is your point, schh. Drew2510 Jan 2014 #46
Plato approved equal opportunity for women in the military. Mysterysouppe Jan 2014 #47
Yeah, but Plato, to my knowledge Drew2510 Jan 2014 #48
Many other folk ignoring the tens of thousands of women pressed into service by the Soviets LanternWaste Jan 2014 #61
Like I said eariler, Drew2510 Jan 2014 #63
Lantern, I just thought of what might be a better comparison Drew2510 Jan 2014 #65
On one hand I agree CFLDem Jan 2014 #49
If someone who can't do 3 pullups wants to goto war, let em be fodder NoOneMan Jan 2014 #53
Yeah but, they would probably put others at risk which is the point. n/t Drew2510 Jan 2014 #59
I know it it NoOneMan Jan 2014 #62
This one is total baloney treestar Jan 2014 #77
Does anyone know how the IDF Drew2510 Jan 2014 #66
The IDF has a coed battalion dookers Jan 2014 #80
Thanks for the info. Drew2510 Jan 2014 #92
Thats pathetic. My girlfriend isn't a health nut but she can do three Exultant Democracy Jan 2014 #67
Why can't we accept that there GENERALLY are differences in male/female physical capabilities? tableturner Jan 2014 #69
Thank you for so eloquently Drew2510 Jan 2014 #70
As time and technology go no, it matters less and less treestar Jan 2014 #76
I've never been able to do pullups. Or climb ropes. leftyladyfrommo Jan 2014 #72
Compare to this, my family member wants to be a marine treestar Jan 2014 #73
After a quick Google search... rrneck Jan 2014 #74
IMO the bigger problem here is the load treestar Jan 2014 #75
Yeah, they're overloaded. rrneck Jan 2014 #79
what happened to a supply wagon? treestar Jan 2014 #81
Foot soldiers go where vehicles can't. rrneck Jan 2014 #82
But that load tires them out treestar Jan 2014 #88
It looks like that's just what it takes to get the job done. rrneck Jan 2014 #93
all that trouble to try to claim women can't do it treestar Jan 2014 #94
Yep, it's all a conspiracy to keep women out of the army. rrneck Jan 2014 #95
Women did fight in those days too treestar Jan 2014 #97
Joan of Arc was an exception. rrneck Jan 2014 #100
Joan never carried a sword, JOAN lead attacks happyslug Jan 2014 #146
The Army eliminated its last mules in 1956 happyslug Jan 2014 #87
Agreed, there must be some modern technological way to have a substitute treestar Jan 2014 #89
Here you go... rrneck Jan 2014 #96
Then the women who would be good sharpshooters should be at the front treestar Jan 2014 #99
That's nonsense. rrneck Jan 2014 #101
It is not; it makes perfect sense treestar Jan 2014 #109
Then why don't you figure out a way to make rrneck Jan 2014 #112
You understand the solution, right? rrneck Jan 2014 #102
Actually it is called a "Mule" but sometimes a "Person" happyslug Jan 2014 #139
Isn't this like the third or fourth posting of this story here at DU? I am beginning to wonder CTyankee Jan 2014 #83
This message was self-deleted by its author Purveyor Jan 2014 #86
No more than rrneck Jan 2014 #103
No. One is a discussion of a philosophy embraced by Progressives. CTyankee Jan 2014 #104
No. rrneck Jan 2014 #107
One is a philosophy that progressives embrace, no? CTyankee Jan 2014 #108
No. rrneck Jan 2014 #113
Thanks for straightening all of us out. Silly us, we thought it was also about CTyankee Jan 2014 #115
You're the one treating the issue like a semantic game. rrneck Jan 2014 #117
Stop it. Really. Women are part of the military now. We must all live with it. CTyankee Jan 2014 #119
Are you sure you replied to the right post? rrneck Jan 2014 #121
Not sure what your issue is. I thought we were discussing women's strengths in the military. CTyankee Jan 2014 #123
Yes, we were. rrneck Jan 2014 #124
My issue was dealing with feminism as if it si a subset of women in the military always, CTyankee Jan 2014 #125
It's far from over. rrneck Jan 2014 #126
What "combat load problem"? pinboy3niner Jan 2014 #131
If they can carry it fine by me. rrneck Jan 2014 #133
"We are the better for it." - that's it right there. Nine Jan 2014 #122
Nailed it! pinboy3niner Jan 2014 #132
I had female civillawyer Jan 2014 #84
Which Branch, Inf, Arty, Armor, Cav, JAG, etc Drew2510 Jan 2014 #138
Do you have to ask that question? happyslug Jan 2014 #144
This reminds me of the anti-ACA propaganda Nine Jan 2014 #118
I know. Hard to get this through some folks heads, even at DU (wouldja believe?). CTyankee Jan 2014 #120
Not really. rrneck Jan 2014 #127
You believe the Marines care more about "gender equality" than getting good people. Nine Jan 2014 #128
Nope. rrneck Jan 2014 #129
You sure have a lot invested in this for someone not in the armed forces. Nine Jan 2014 #135
Yes, I have a lot invested. rrneck Jan 2014 #136
... and I would also venture to guess that male Marines subjected to pain similar to childbirth Myrina Jan 2014 #151
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