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In reply to the discussion: Independent review board says NSA phone data program is illegal and should end [View all]eomer
(3,845 posts)84. There is no way that the language of 215 can reasonably be interpreted to justify what they're doing
`SEC. 501. ACCESS TO CERTAIN BUSINESS RECORDS FOR FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE AND INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM INVESTIGATIONS.
`(a)(1) The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation or a designee of the Director (whose rank shall be no lower than Assistant Special Agent in Charge) may make an application for an order requiring the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items) for an investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution.
`(2) An investigation conducted under this section shall--
`(A) be conducted under guidelines approved by the Attorney General under Executive Order 12333 (or a successor order); and
`(B) not be conducted of a United States person solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
`(b) Each application under this section--
`(1) shall be made to--
`(A) a judge of the court established by section 103(a); or
`(B) a United States Magistrate Judge under chapter 43 of title 28, United States Code, who is publicly designated by the Chief Justice of the United States to have the power to hear applications and grant orders for the production of tangible things under this section on behalf of a judge of that court; and
`(2) shall specify that the records concerned are sought for an authorized investigation conducted in accordance with subsection (a)(2) to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities.
`(c)(1) Upon an application made pursuant to this section, the judge shall enter an ex parte order as requested, or as modified, approving the release of records if the judge finds that the application meets the requirements of this section.
`(a)(1) The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation or a designee of the Director (whose rank shall be no lower than Assistant Special Agent in Charge) may make an application for an order requiring the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items) for an investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution.
`(2) An investigation conducted under this section shall--
`(A) be conducted under guidelines approved by the Attorney General under Executive Order 12333 (or a successor order); and
`(B) not be conducted of a United States person solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
`(b) Each application under this section--
`(1) shall be made to--
`(A) a judge of the court established by section 103(a); or
`(B) a United States Magistrate Judge under chapter 43 of title 28, United States Code, who is publicly designated by the Chief Justice of the United States to have the power to hear applications and grant orders for the production of tangible things under this section on behalf of a judge of that court; and
`(2) shall specify that the records concerned are sought for an authorized investigation conducted in accordance with subsection (a)(2) to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities.
`(c)(1) Upon an application made pursuant to this section, the judge shall enter an ex parte order as requested, or as modified, approving the release of records if the judge finds that the application meets the requirements of this section.
This language clearly says that for a US person to be investigated there must be some basis of activities of that person ("shall ... not be conducted of a United States person solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States"
The NSA's interpretation, as explained by hack James Clapper, is absurd and outrageous. Clearly the legislature intended for collection to be only as part of an actual investigation of a person for some purpose. A claim that the above wording justifies collecting data on every single person in the US just in case it is needed in an investigation is really beyond the pale. Are you really saying that or am I not understanding correctly?
While it's surely true that changes in some of the laws are needed, the entire body of our laws is a moot point unless and until we return our country to the rule of law. These outrageous interpretations - this one and to cite another example, John Yoo's absurd interpretation of the Geneva Conventions - are in fact a refusal on the part of the Executive Branch to submit itself to the rule of law. The President could make a tremendous step in the right direction by ordering some specific interpretation of this law that is reasonable and making it clear that he has done so in order to return us to the rule of law.
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Independent review board says NSA phone data program is illegal and should end [View all]
muriel_volestrangler
Jan 2014
OP
They are, if they expect the President to do Congress's job. What you have here, though, is a
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#4
Read more than the conclusion, and you will see that this poster is imprecise. nt
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#12
That's the problem when you read only the 'conclusion.' Specific statutory construction
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#11
It's basically impossible for legislation to be a bulwark against this type of abuse.
eomer
Jan 2014
#23
No--it's not. If you accept that the most powerful branch of the government, as defined
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#26
The Executive Branch is ignoring the clear language that prohibits what they're doing.
eomer
Jan 2014
#30
No--they are using the imprecise language of the statute! AND, Congress can still BAN
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#31
There is no way that the language of 215 can reasonably be interpreted to justify what they're doing
eomer
Jan 2014
#84
"The NSA's interpretation, as explained by hack James Clapper, is absurd and outrageous."
Titonwan
Jan 2014
#104
Well--- I think you and I are in agreement here....strict stautory construction of
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#13
I remember trying to make Congress do "their job" and vote the Patriot Act down.
2banon
Jan 2014
#17
And now we have a chance to modify one of the more repugnant sections. 215 needs a hiding. nt
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#20
The point of the OP is that the independent review group adjuged that the NSA activities
JDPriestly
Jan 2014
#114
The Commission's conclusions are useful for political work but have no legal force
struggle4progress
Jan 2014
#115
Well, we will see if Congress reauthorizes 215. Do you think Obama should veto it, if it passes? n
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#5
Indeed, a government program established under the auspices of Article 1, Section 8
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#16
I was about to say that "Congress" and "act" shouldn't be in the same sentence
mindwalker_i
Jan 2014
#15
But they aren't storing massive amounts of data on Americans. Not that we know of.
randome
Jan 2014
#34
The OP points out that the NSA is storing massive amounts of data on Americans
muriel_volestrangler
Jan 2014
#43
Then edit your post to remove "they aren't storing massive amounts of data on Americans"
muriel_volestrangler
Jan 2014
#49
Well, that 's your idiosyncratic interpretation; 'massive' does not imply 'vacuuming'
muriel_volestrangler
Jan 2014
#53
I honestly don't consider metadata phone records to be 'massive amounts of data'.
randome
Jan 2014
#56
There's probably as much in one day's metadata as in all the certificates for a person
muriel_volestrangler
Jan 2014
#57
I believe I've just shown the metadata is far larger than SSA or IRS data
muriel_volestrangler
Jan 2014
#60
My 'okay' was impetuous. (I'M MULTI-TASKING HERE!) I disagree with you about the metadata.
randome
Jan 2014
#62
One birth. No death (for anyone living). An average of 2 marriage/divorces combined.
muriel_volestrangler
Jan 2014
#64
And it was the government that brought the situation to the attention of the judge.
randome
Jan 2014
#37
I doubt it costs much of anything to transfer data from the telecoms to the NSA.
randome
Jan 2014
#41
have you ever considered the possibility that some day dissent could be criminalized?
grasswire
Jan 2014
#48
Are you seriously arguing that we should give up our privacy now on the off chance that someday
Vincardog
Jan 2014
#58
The alternative is to investigate crimes after they happen. There is NO reason to treat us all like
Vincardog
Jan 2014
#63
The cost of Billions could be saved. The data has been stored for years and has
Vincardog
Jan 2014
#66
The data center alone cost $1.7 Billion to build. You call that 'likely negligible'. You ignore my
Vincardog
Jan 2014
#71
The data center is there to store the metadata forever. It is never discarded. An insurance policy
Vincardog
Jan 2014
#73
You said the data fits on a drive and is discarded. You said it, I say prove it.
Vincardog
Jan 2014
#83
I'm an IT developer. I can't prove shit to you as an anonymous poster whom you will never meet.
randome
Jan 2014
#87
You make statements of fact. When challenged you change the statement to an opinion. From now on
Vincardog
Jan 2014
#91
Then tell me why you think the metadata referred to above relates to Americans.
randome
Jan 2014
#111
How would they find the phone numbers of potential co-conspirators if they don't have the metadata?
randome
Jan 2014
#96
How did they do this before they started spying on all Americans. There's your answer.
DisgustipatedinCA
Jan 2014
#97
Insert the Ben Franklin quote about the balance between security and liberty FOR THE1000x
riderinthestorm
Jan 2014
#102
I don't have to listen to your phone calls to know what you're doing.
ForgoTheConsequence
Jan 2014
#32
good that the truth is coming out - but on some levels the right response to this report is simply
Douglas Carpenter
Jan 2014
#33
So if there were cases where the program helped thwart terrorist activities then it would be ok?
DCBob
Jan 2014
#108
Yes. More than plausible. I'm sure its happened, just like rendition for torture...
riderinthestorm
Jan 2014
#119