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143. Naivete

Sun Jan 26, 2014, 01:51 AM

Jan 2014

That's not going to stop. It's the world's second, maybe first, oldest profession.

Call me an authoritarian if you like (don't get that at all since I agree with Snowden's calls for domestic info gathering to stop) but do you know how you sound? Because a naive 29-year-old thinks his divulging of international covert operations is going to, or should stop spying, is, and I have to say it, laughable, and you agree with it?

Perhaps you haven't heard but there are now stirring to try to get Jonathan Pollard released by his supporters. He's the one who spied on us in the '80s for Israel, that's right Israel, our biggest ally in the Middle East.

Countries that can afford it will continue to do it for strategic advantage and it's not going to stop, I don't care how much Snowden calls for it. It's almost silly to think it will.

Realpolitik anyone?

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Russia: Snowden can stay [View all] George II Jan 2014 OP

Snowden is a gain for the U.S. former9thward Jan 2014 #1

Our loss, their gain. RC Jan 2014 #2

Evidently not Demeter Jan 2014 #5

It's possible to see Snowden as a traitor and yet still decry Section 215. Snowden hero worship msanthrope Jan 2014 #14

Actually no. Seeing Snowden as as a traitor is supporting the NSA and pro Section 215. RC Jan 2014 #15

Actually, I can have any way I want. And Snowden hasn't told us anything anybody paying attention msanthrope Jan 2014 #17

No, he left because he saw what our government did to Manning. RC Jan 2014 #20

Right...Manning is a criminal. The way to not be a criminal is to follow msanthrope Jan 2014 #21

Slavish devotion to the law, even when defying it is of benefit to the people, Maedhros Jan 2014 #48

Well...and there is the rub....Manning's stealing the directory of military msanthrope Jan 2014 #50

This thread is about Snowden, not Manning. [n/t] Maedhros Jan 2014 #54

And your advice is for people to break the law which is your moral position, right? Demenace Jan 2014 #59

One must weight the respective benefit to the people Maedhros Jan 2014 #69

so if you think more people will benefit from breaking a law then obeying it then you will break it? Bodhi BloodWave Jan 2014 #76

What we're discussing is a classic whistleblower situation. Maedhros Jan 2014 #93

One can focus on both though no? Bodhi BloodWave Jan 2014 #95

As I said, focusing on Snowdnen's alleged crimes gives cover to those trying to obscure Maedhros Jan 2014 #109

and as i said Bodhi BloodWave Jan 2014 #167

and disregard for the law is anarchy VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #78

You're right. Rosa Parks should NOT have sat in the front of that bus. Maedhros Jan 2014 #108

Okay then...screw the law....Chaos for everybody! VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #115

Rosa Parks broke the law in an attempt to end the injustice of segregation. Maedhros Jan 2014 #116

No Rosa Parks didn't set out to become an icon... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #117

What about Jo Ann Gibson Robinson? Maedhros Jan 2014 #118

So? She also had the courage of her convictions...she didn't run in the face of the law... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #119

But she broke the law, in an effort to end an injustice. Maedhros Jan 2014 #120

she didn't run away....lather rinse repeat... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #121

None of those things are relevant to the fundamental premise. Maedhros Jan 2014 #122

+100000 nt riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #124

No I am focusing on who has the courage and who doesn't.... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #129

Again, the "courage" of the messenger is both subjective and irrelevant. Maedhros Jan 2014 #138

some people bar for courage is set mighty low... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #139

Some people's bar for logic is set even lower... [n/t] Maedhros Jan 2014 #141

Our military go risk their lives every day....that takes courage... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #142

Civil rights activists were snooped on by the government Ash_F Jan 2014 #146

If Snowden "hasn't told us anything anybody paying attention didn't already know was going on," JDPriestly Jan 2014 #45

Simple...because he stole and ran. These are crimes. nt msanthrope Jan 2014 #46

And the NSA stole our information and concealed their theft. Also a crime. JDPriestly Jan 2014 #52

How do you steal something everyone already knew? Ash_F Jan 2014 #60

When you steal other honest individuals passwords to obtain something... Demenace Jan 2014 #63

he stole classified operations documents and gave them to foreign msanthrope Jan 2014 #65

Uh ask copyright lawyers... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #79

My friend, it is better for his followers not to acknowledge their dishonesty... Demenace Jan 2014 #62

Here. JDPriestly Jan 2014 #68

"It is not illegal to disclose government conduct that is illegal." George II Jan 2014 #98

Have you ever pointed out to your boss that something going on in his company was illegal? JDPriestly Jan 2014 #106

Yes I did, and no I wasn't. George II Jan 2014 #107

I did and I was. /nt Ash_F Jan 2014 #114

Even though you admit that they already knew. JDPriestly Jan 2014 #123

As I said, before Snowden they already knew, but they didn't know how... George II Jan 2014 #125

You can't have it anyway you want and be making sense too. Ash_F Jan 2014 #61

Exactly (thanx for posting) Titonwan Jan 2014 #36

Then you believe there is only one right track on this issue and that track is yours, right? Demenace Jan 2014 #58

Project much? RC Jan 2014 #64

no grey area in your world huh? VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #77

Usually yes, but not in this case. RC Jan 2014 #130

Snowden ran like a scalded dog.. VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #135

So he should have stuck around and be treated like they did Manning? RC Jan 2014 #147

But what about Snowden divulging intricacies of our international . . . brush Jan 2014 #127

Snowden's said he wants a global discussion of illegal surveillance. That includes 5 eyes partners riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #128

Don't understand what you're saying with your post brush Jan 2014 #134

Nope. I think he wants a convo about allies spying on other allies for economic imperialism riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #137

Naivete brush Jan 2014 #143

Then you are exposed supporting some pretty despicable US shit riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #150

You are right, we have been bad actors as well brush Jan 2014 #154

The NSA has admitted they haven't stopped any attacks. So what are they REALLY for? riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #155

The NSA is also in violation of international law. RC Jan 2014 #133

So all countries should stop spying on each other? brush Jan 2014 #136

And the United States isn't one of the worse bad actors out there? RC Jan 2014 #148

You're right about that brush Jan 2014 #149

9/11 happened because the bu$h administration ignored all the warnings from other countries. RC Jan 2014 #153

I've said all alone, and in the post you responded to that . . . brush Jan 2014 #158

We know the NSA hasn't stopped any attacks. Alexander himself has said it. riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #159

The domestic stuff should be stopped. nt brush Jan 2014 #160

So no comment about Alexander's confession that the NSA isn't fighting terrorism? riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #161

Not up on that. Do you have a link? brush Jan 2014 #162

In post #159 nt riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #163

Thanks for the link brush Jan 2014 #164

Alexander lied that the NSA had stopped terror attacks. In the US or outside riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #165

Just going by the link you sent me brush Jan 2014 #166

Will eliminating "Section 215" stop Brazil from spying on us, or......... George II Jan 2014 #23

Brazil was "spying on us" in their own country. ronnie624 Jan 2014 #38

You are certainly naive if you think all countries are not spying on each other at every VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #80

I can't imagine how that would be relevant. ronnie624 Jan 2014 #87

So we should just shut ours down even though every single other one continues? VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #88

Don't expect me to defend your simplistic straw man argument. ronnie624 Jan 2014 #90

but this was a sub discussion of that... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #91

This thread is weird. ronnie624 Jan 2014 #92

okay.... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #105

It is normal for countries to spy on other countries, especially on foreign national activity within JDPriestly Jan 2014 #49

I thought you said on another thread on the Australian reaction to Snowden... Demenace Jan 2014 #57

What I said: JDPriestly Jan 2014 #66

Didn't anyone read my SECOND sentence above? George II Jan 2014 #53

There is also very considerable ground between regarding Snowden as either a "hero" or a "traitor" markpkessinger Jan 2014 #126

OMG really? treestar Jan 2014 #71

How did you get that from what I said? RC Jan 2014 #72

Maybe. It was the post ending with how he should be welcomed as hero. nt treestar Jan 2014 #102

Snowden is a Patriot. RC Jan 2014 #104

I agree with you - TBF Jan 2014 #96

This is great news! Titonwan Jan 2014 #3

One guy in the Duma has said this..let's not get too excited. nt msanthrope Jan 2014 #12

Duma? n/t Titonwan Jan 2014 #35

Really? nt msanthrope Jan 2014 #47

Apparently he didn't just "say" it. ronnie624 Jan 2014 #75

Four more years and Eddie can become a citizen! He's no Depardieu, so I assume they will MADem Jan 2014 #4

Imagine not being able to drink...in Russia. It's winter from now ' til June.... msanthrope Jan 2014 #11

I see negotiations over Snowden have begun. bemildred Jan 2014 #6

But, your last line should read... George II Jan 2014 #7

I you think that's better, go for it. nt bemildred Jan 2014 #8

Denied extensively, carla Jan 2014 #30

"Denied" by whom? Comrade Eddie? His KGB lawyer? GG? Tarheel_Dem Jan 2014 #33

Evidence that debriefing is going on? JDPriestly Jan 2014 #51

!!! Tarheel_Dem Jan 2014 #32

Argument by cartoons... Psephos Jan 2014 #42

Good news, Comrade Eddie! SoapBox Jan 2014 #9

WOLVERINES!!1 frylock Jan 2014 #24

... awoke_in_2003 Jan 2014 #27

Thank you for that. Seeing a Red Dawn reference in conjunction with this poster made it click. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #67

that poster is a chronic red baiter and too cowardly to address replies to their bullshit.. frylock Jan 2014 #70

particularly for those of the Libertarian vein... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #81

This is one of the most republican sounding posts to which I've been exposed. Ed Suspicious Jan 2014 #151

in this day and age, US, Russia, what is the diference. olddad56 Jan 2014 #10

If you don't know the difference, that's sad George II Jan 2014 #25

If you don't think that the difference is shrinking as fast as the artic ice is melting, that is sad olddad56 Jan 2014 #40

Digby's take Titonwan Jan 2014 #44

Yeah, it is.. Cha Jan 2014 #85

Snowden has played us all. FarPoint Jan 2014 #13

well, you know what they say about opinions and assholes.. frylock Jan 2014 #22

So...you are calling me an asshole essentially. FarPoint Jan 2014 #39

Touche! He's calling himself one, too.. Cha Jan 2014 #86

YAY! And good riddance. Tarheel_Dem Jan 2014 #16

That cartoon is hilariously accurate! nt MADem Jan 2014 #18

If he thinks he was "monitored" in the US, he ain't seen nothing yet. Tarheel_Dem Jan 2014 #19

They probably weigh/analyze his stool with every flush! nt MADem Jan 2014 #28

Remember the outrage when (*) said "he looked into Pooty Poot's eyes" and fell under his spell or... Tarheel_Dem Jan 2014 #31

He saw his SOUL...he said!!!! MADem Jan 2014 #37

Ugh. Now I remember. Tarheel_Dem Jan 2014 #43

Interesting article about other American defectors to Russia (USSR) George II Jan 2014 #26

"Others were sent to Josef Stalin's gulags, where they served long sentences or were executed" Tarheel_Dem Jan 2014 #29

Honestly? I think he got TOTALLY LUCKY. MADem Jan 2014 #41

Wow...very good analysis... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #82

+10000000000 treestar Jan 2014 #101

"You vant my Snowden? Nyet!" randome Jan 2014 #34

You know Russia thinks they are all great because they are taking in Eric Snowden... LynneSin Jan 2014 #55

If Snowden had come out prior to 2009, he would have been universally hailed a hero on this site. kiawah Jan 2014 #56

Baloney treestar Jan 2014 #73

How NSA Spies Abused Their Powers to Snoop on Girlfriends, Lovers, and First Dates Ash_F Jan 2014 #74

And you know what happened when the NSA discovered this? randome Jan 2014 #99

Will they get the 35 years Manning did? /nt Ash_F Jan 2014 #111

You realize Manning wasn't NSA and wasn't a civilian, right? stevenleser Jan 2014 #131

No you are right. Zero jail time was definitely appropriate. /nt Ash_F Jan 2014 #144

How does that statement fix your error regarding the facts? nt stevenleser Jan 2014 #145

There will always be exceptions treestar Jan 2014 #100

I await that elusive exception where their snooping has stopped a bomber. /nt Ash_F Jan 2014 #110

The medical examiner's office doesn't prevent murders either. Should we close them all up? nt stevenleser Jan 2014 #132

Not that simple treestar Jan 2014 #152

Oh the NSA are just like doctors now? Ash_F Jan 2014 #157

Also didn't take much for congress to immediately withdraw funding from ACORN. Ash_F Jan 2014 #112

Snowie was on the GWB team...remember??? VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #84

Problem for you is...Snowden played for the other team! VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #89

Snowden loves Putin.. glad it's Cha Jan 2014 #83

So if he decided to stay permanently in Russia nilesobek Jan 2014 #94

It was pretty much expected they'd do that davidpdx Jan 2014 #97

Pretty soon Eddie is going to have to get a job in Russia.. Historic NY Jan 2014 #103

Everything is fine then. dipsydoodle Jan 2014 #113

Snowden is a hero Harmony Blue Jan 2014 #140

What makes this guy think he is so terribly important to the US Tippy Jan 2014 #156