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In reply to the discussion: UK Court: David Miranda Detention Legal Under Terrorism Law [View all]msanthrope
(37,549 posts)42. Here you go...
To the jury--no copyright issue, as this is a public document.
55. Mr Greenwalds witness statement of 23 October 2013 contains a similar theme at paragraph 9:
I believe the evidence will show that the defendants were well aware that the claimants possession [sc. of the material seized] was in connection with journalism, not terrorism.
Mr Greenwalds account of the practice of responsible journalism has a didactic quality:
31. It is my view that there will be times when the publication of sensitive material, even national security material, is appropriate, provided the journalist and those working with him or her take great care and act responsibly.
32. But not to publish material simply because a government official has said such publication may be damaging to national security is antithetical to the most important traditions of responsible journalism. That approach is also deeply unhealthy for any democracy. It would have prevented some of the most important information in world current affairs ever coming to light. Publication of information contrary to the wishes of a government is, at times, both the role and the duty of the Fourth Estate. The key is not for journalists to simply defer to the government view, but to act as responsibly and carefully as they can to determine if and when it is in the public interest to publish sensitive material. That is what we have done.
33. From my experience I can indicate that there are many ingredients to the sensible reporting of very sensitive information. They include, but are not limited to, the following:
(1)
If possible, one should seek to use the skills and judgment of highly experienced journalists and legal experts. This is the most appropriate and safest way to decide whether to publish information and how much of it to disclose. That collective experience enables a careful judgment of both the public interest and any risks or dangers that may arise on publication.
(2)
Experienced editors and reporters are able to consider what, if anything, may be published without endangering innocent life. They cannot always, of course, do so with complete perfection. But the history of investigative journalism leaves no doubt that such judgments can be, and almost always are, made with great responsibility.
(3)
Editors and other journalists not only have experience, but they also have established methods through which to communicate with government officials in relation to publication. These can be both formal and informal. These procedures enable journalists to determine which stories may be sensitive because they pose a real danger to persons if there is publication; and which stories are sensitive, awkward, embarrassing for the government, or which the government feels may be undesirable to be made public.
The nearest Mr Greenwald gets to an engagement with the defendants evidence as to the actual or potential damaging effects of the dissemination of material seized from the claimant is at paragraphs 51 52:
51. It is absurd to suggest that because the material, if it ever fell into the hands of terrorists could in theory be used for terrorist purposes, then there is a justification for using counterterrorist measures to take that material from responsible journalists publishing material through respected international media organisations. (original emphasis)
52. Nowhere in their evidence do the defendants witnesses positively indicate that any disclosure has actually threatened or endangered life or any specific operation. In my view, this is not surprising, given the care we took not to create such a risk.
56. I am afraid I have found much of this evidence unhelpful. First, the claimant and Mr Greenwald both appear prepared to accuse the defendants of bad faith. The claimant at paragraphs 61(2) and 62, and Mr Greenwald at paragraph 9, suggest that the defendants deployed the Schedule 7 powers for what they the defendants believed was an improper purpose. It is true that the premise of these observations in their evidence is that the identification and neutralisation of the material which the claimant was carrying was not a permitted purpose; and I have held the contrary. But the sting (especially that of paragraph 61(2) of the claimants statement) is that the defendants did not believe that the claimants possession of the material presented any real danger to national security or risk of loss of life. I bear in mind the limits of evidence not cross-examined; but there is no perceptible foundation for such a suggestion.
57. Secondly, the evidence for the claimant simply does not engage with the defendants testimony as to the substance of the threat posed by the theft of the security material and its possession by the claimant. Mr Greenwalds statement at paragraph 32 that not to publish material simply because a government official has said such publication may be damaging to national security is antithetical to the most important traditions of responsible journalism is true but trivial. Of course a bare, wholly unqualified assertion by government will not be enough. But that is not this case; the defendants evidence plainly goes much further.
58. Thirdly, Mr Greenwalds account (paragraph 33) of the many ingredients to the sensible reporting of very sensitive information is insubstantial; or rather, mysterious
the reader is left in the dark as to how it is that highly experienced journalists and legal experts (paragraph 33(1)) or [e]xperienced editors and reporters (33(2)) are able to know what may and what may not be published without endangering life or security. There may no doubt be obvious cases, where the information on its face is a gift to the terrorist. But in other instances the journalist may not understand the intrinsic significance of material in his hands; more particularly, the consequences of revealing this or that fact will depend upon knowledge of the whole jigsaw (a term used in the course of argument) of disparate pieces of intelligence, to which the classes of persons referred to by Mr Greenwald will not have access. At paragraph 26 of his first statement Mr Robbins says this:
Indeed it is impossible for a journalist alone to form a proper judgment about what disclosure of protectively marked intelligence does or does not damage national security... The fragmentary nature of intelligence means that even a seemingly innocuous piece of information can provide important clues to individuals involved in extremism or terrorism.
59. In the result, I conclude that nothing said for the claimant qualifies or puts in doubt the evidence of Mr Robbins and DS Goode as to the dangers inherent in the release (or further release) or dissemination of the material in the claimants possession. Neither the claimant nor Mr Greenwald is in a position to form an accurate judgment on the matter.
In other words, Glenn's didactic testimony sunk him..
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We are all "terrorists" now. It is the MIC that 'hates our freedoms' and revels in secrecy, IMHO.
grahamhgreen
Feb 2014
#1
GG must be furious...the decision rips him apart in a manner that leaves no doubt
msanthrope
Feb 2014
#3
Really? You aren't embarrassed by your gushing support of the surveillance state
muriel_volestrangler
Feb 2014
#5
Mr. Greenwald chose the venue of the courts, and I am pleased that his Libertarian
msanthrope
Feb 2014
#7
Libertarianism, yes. And having the addresses and names of officers in the field is a reason
msanthrope
Feb 2014
#10
What you are attacking is liberty; the freedom of the press, and freedom of movement
muriel_volestrangler
Feb 2014
#13
What is your Liberty interest in stolen property? Greenwald could have published from
msanthrope
Feb 2014
#14
The documents are evidence of wrong-doing by my government, and yours
muriel_volestrangler
Feb 2014
#17
Luke Harding??? The guy Greenwald is pissed off at for writing a Snowden book?
msanthrope
Feb 2014
#18
Yeah, Luke Harding - you don't have to be Greenwald's best friend to oppose this ruling
muriel_volestrangler
Feb 2014
#19
Nonsense--they had no court presence, at all. And being an interested party is the
msanthrope
Feb 2014
#20
You need to read more than one paragraph...under Paragraph 11, the Guardian clearly could have
msanthrope
Feb 2014
#23
You want to know why Greenwald is complaining that his spouse was detained and threatened
muriel_volestrangler
Feb 2014
#24
Look..you and I have a differing opinion on how the law would apply. I merely
msanthrope
Feb 2014
#26
What Greenwald says about the Guardian - from the final link in the OP:
muriel_volestrangler
Feb 2014
#30
No...the cite I asked for pretty much demolishes the whinging. Which is why you won't provide it.
msanthrope
Feb 2014
#40
I thank you. I've not written a word supporting illegal surveillance, but I'm not hooking my star t
msanthrope
Feb 2014
#33
msanthrope is gleeful that the state can confiscate personal possessions
muriel_volestrangler
Feb 2014
#34
Um no...I think Greenwald's "constitutional duties" argument is pure American libertarian. nt
msanthrope
Feb 2014
#43
Indeed..his argument regarding constitutional duty is purely Libertarian. nt
msanthrope
Feb 2014
#28
And Justices Ouseley and Openshaw???? You may not like Judge Laws, but what about the rest? nt
msanthrope
Feb 2014
#11
The same legal rationale the Egyptian military junta is using to detain Al Jazeera journalists
riderinthestorm
Feb 2014
#9
David Miranda wasn't a journalist...he was a courier in possession of stolen documents. Which the
msanthrope
Feb 2014
#12
There really isn't a liberty interest in stolen property you were going to use for a book.
msanthrope
Feb 2014
#16
I'm not going to re-hash what muriel volestrangler has already posted to rebut your points
riderinthestorm
Feb 2014
#27
I'm back on a smartphone that won't allow me to excerpt....some of us work for a living....
msanthrope
Feb 2014
#29
LOL, that's all ya got? Back to slamming the source with zero comment on the issue?
riderinthestorm
Feb 2014
#38
Manning's automated download of 750K file, or Snowden's automated download of 1.7 million,
struggle4progress
Feb 2014
#48
"I had no time to look at the documents I'm releasing but I'm sure they're evidence of a crime"
struggle4progress
Feb 2014
#62
This really sucks for people who internationally traffic in stolen classified documents!
struggle4progress
Feb 2014
#46