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happyslug

(14,779 posts)
15. Scortch Earth was NOT the Russian Policy Against Napoleon, he did that himself....
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:12 PM
Feb 2014

Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:46 PM - Edit history (1)

You must understand the nature of Napoleon's army. In many ways it is the first "Modern" Army in the sense it is made up of Division and Corps. Each Corp had its own supply lines which ran to the divisions in that corp. In history the closest thing to the French Corps was the Roman Legion and the Mongol Tumen. The Division, the Tumen and the Legion ended up with roughly 10,000 men each. The Corps, under Napoleon 30-40,000 men.

This is important for any army maxis out at about 50,000 men. Armies larger then 50,000 is just to hard to supply. The three units above are ways to divide an army into smaller Armies that can be combined on the day of battle. This permit much larger armies for each Division, Legion or Tumen have their own supply lines. Thus Napoleon's army pf over 600,000 men was not one army but 16 Army Corps (in effective 16 armies marching as independent but interrelated Armies). Each of those armies were designed to live off the land. i.e loot the area for Food and fodder. This was often done by Light Cavalry units of such armies, which do to this function had a bad reputation among the peasants. So bad was reputation of Light Cavalry that when General Braddock n Pennsylvania had a problem getting horses for his plan attack on Fort Duquesne later Fort Pitt, today Pittsburgh, in 1754, Ben Franklin send out a letter to the German settlers of Pennsylvania that unless they agree to sell their horse, a Colonel (whose names I forget) "The Hussar" (A Polish Term for Light Cavalry that became a European wide term by the mid 1700s) would go out and get them himself. The term was used to put fear in those Germans, who came up with the horses. That is how bad Light Cavalry was held by the peasants not only of Europe but even the US.

Anyway, the Light Cavalry would spread out from their base units and steal anything not nailed down, including food and fodder, leaving whole areas barren. Wellington Notice this in his Spanish Campaign against Napoleon's troops and made sure he had food for his troops before he started any attack for the French Army would leave nothing (Wellington's grain supply ended up coming from New England, even after the War of 1812 has started,it was funny, American Ships full of Wheat would sail out New England, after war was declared and be intercepted by a British Frigate who would then escort it to Spain and Wellington. This was the main reason New England opposed the War of 1812, and why when England decided to blockage US Ports in that war, started with Georgia and worked they way up North.

Anyway, I bring up Wellington to show stripping land of everything was characteristic of the French Armies of the Napoleonic Wars. Wellington did not do it, for he had to depend on Spanish support, the French told the Spanish to lump it. When it came to the invasion of Russia, they was no way in 1812 for Napoleon to feed his army of over 600,000 men other then by raping the countryside.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_battle_of_the_French_invasion_of_Russia

AS to Moscow, the Russian abandoned the City, but left it intact. The subsequent burning of Moscow occurred as the French Troops, did what they had done in rural area, strip the place bare. In rural area an occasional fire would burn one building, but such a fire would burn much of the city if left uncontrolled. Thus it is after the French Took Moscow and as they troops look around for loot that the city caught on fire and was burned. Notice it was the FRENCH through their own greed that lead to the burning of Moscow. The Russians had just left and burned nothing (through it appears the Russian took all the food with them).

Thus once Napoleon had taken Moscow, he had two choices, stay the winter but that required him to send out his light Cavalry troops to get the food and fodder his men and horse needed and by the time he took Moscow, most crops were in and well hidden. Furthermore all the area between Moscow and Poland had been raped by his army, thus no food or fodder to be gathered. The second choice was to fight south and retreat through the Ukraine.

The Pinsk (Prepet) Marshes separate Russia from the Ukraine as to the Ukraine's northern border. Napoleon's Army had traveled north of the Pinsk Marshes and had stripped it bare. Thus this was Napoleon's first choice but while he won the Battle of Maloyaroslavets on October 24, 1812, that "Victory" told Napoleon he had not yet defeated the Russian Army and thus decided to retreat the way he came. The problem was not only was it Winter but his army on the way To Moscow had already stripped the country side bare. Less then 10% of his army made it back to Poland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinsk_Marshes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Maloyaroslavets

I bring this up, for Russia did NOT adopt a Scorch Earth Policy against Napoleon, the Scorch earth policy was the policy of Napoleon's own army. It had been the key to his victory for with that policy Napoleon could field more troops then any other country in Europe. The downside is the peasants quickly turned against such an army. In the early years of the Wars, the peasants had been neutral as to French invasions, for to most peasants who was ruling them did not matter, they still had to pay whatever their "Masters" wanted them to pay. The problem starting with Spain, when Wellington refused to do what the French was doing, and thus was able to turn the Spanish peasants from Neutral to pro-British. Both the Prussians and Russians found this same problem after they had been defeated in the Battle of Jena in 1808, their peasants did not care who won or loss, for it did not affect them. Until what Napoleon was doing with his troops was shown to affect those peasants, those peasants were neutral. When it became clear the French Army was doing much more harm then even the Russian Army was capable of doing, the peasants turned against the French and ended up destroying Napoleon.

Thus it was the Scorch earth policy that came from French Army living off the land that did in Napoleon not any scotch earth policy of the Russians.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

"Scorched Earth" Kutuzov was a "geniune hero"? joshcryer Feb 2014 #1
Your view of history is rather slanted, to say the least! another_liberal Feb 2014 #2
Wow, you are nothing if not flexible... JackRiddler Feb 2014 #3
Scortch Earth was NOT the Russian Policy Against Napoleon, he did that himself.... happyslug Feb 2014 #15
Actually I think you are both right.. EX500rider Feb 2014 #28
This is why DU is so much fun--ya learn something new every day! nt MADem Feb 2014 #79
The Russian campaign is even used as a example on the "Scorched earth" wikki.. EX500rider Feb 2014 #29
I fail to see how War Communism was any different. joshcryer Feb 2014 #49
You're busy helping to stir the ancient bullshit on all fronts, I see. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #69
I'm not the one cheering for secession. joshcryer Feb 2014 #71
You are the one supporting secession, yes. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #72
Russia is the one doing that I'm afraid. joshcryer Feb 2014 #73
Ha, "personal" JackRiddler Feb 2014 #75
Not a win if Russia succeeds in splitting the country up. joshcryer Feb 2014 #77
Statues, not statutes. JackRiddler Mar 2014 #91
I saw nothing unconstitutional. joshcryer Mar 2014 #92
"If someone is offended because symbols of totalitarianism are toppled then I have no sympathy." EX500rider Mar 2014 #93
Thank you! Especially the factoid about the wheat shipments. aquart Mar 2014 #102
Those wheat shipments lead to other things. happyslug Mar 2014 #103
They have a sense of history, of course. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #4
That is some very good writing on your part, my friend. another_liberal Feb 2014 #5
Thank you. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #8
Perhaps they do so due to religious affiliation? another_liberal Feb 2014 #11
Not such a big factor. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #14
"Western Ukraine is largely Greek Catholic (which isn't very much Catholic but recognizes the Pope)" another_liberal Feb 2014 #17
The initials don't have that meaning. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #20
I see. another_liberal Feb 2014 #21
Ukrainian (Greek) Catholics are Catholic. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #24
Except it's not their country's history. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #23
Napoleon didn't pass through that place? JackRiddler Feb 2014 #25
You might want to brush up on your history. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #27
You don't have the chops for this pedantry JackRiddler Feb 2014 #57
Napoleon was trying to restablish Poland muriel_volestrangler Feb 2014 #62
It's not their country's history? Huh?!!!! rdharma Feb 2014 #35
How is a Russian General part of Ukrainian history? n/t EX500rider Feb 2014 #38
Many Seem Unaware, Sir, Czarist Russia, Like Soviet Russia, Was An Empire The Magistrate Feb 2014 #39
But not this part of present-day Ukraine muriel_volestrangler Feb 2014 #40
True, Sir The Magistrate Feb 2014 #42
+1 ... Guess they don't want to be "happy serfs" to a modern day tsar, either..? nt MADem Feb 2014 #80
Yeah, one more reason they aren't fond of Russians. n/t EX500rider Feb 2014 #41
You mean, besides the half of them who are Russians? JackRiddler Feb 2014 #76
Or is it the 17% or so? n/t EX500rider Mar 2014 #94
Languages of the Ukraine: JackRiddler Mar 2014 #95
You mean "Ruthenian" history? Right? rdharma Feb 2014 #44
Turns out many smaller members of Empires weren't fond of the experience. EX500rider Feb 2014 #46
They were known as Ruthenians until the early 1900s. rdharma Feb 2014 #50
Since when does "Ukraine" get a monopoly? JackRiddler Feb 2014 #58
"Half the people there are Russian"...um, no, they aren't Spider Jerusalem Feb 2014 #74
No. It's Russia's history. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #52
Kind of like British Generals are not part of American colonial history, eh? nt rdharma Feb 2014 #55
Washington of course was a British general. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #59
Along with Col. Washington..... there were a lot of other British officers..... rdharma Feb 2014 #60
Right, sorry: Colonel, of course. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #67
Washington was a key figure in American history. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #64
He was British because they controlled the colonies. He wasn't born in London, he was born in VA. nt MADem Feb 2014 #81
That analogy would only work if.... Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #63
Brody wasn't part of Ukraine until the end of WW2 muriel_volestrangler Feb 2014 #6
I wonder why then Svoboda felt a need to desecrate the monument . . . another_liberal Feb 2014 #7
Strange to call this 'desecration' muriel_volestrangler Feb 2014 #9
You are . . . another_liberal Feb 2014 #10
Stop with all that common sense!!! EX500rider Feb 2014 #13
I'd say you've summed up the actual situation brilliantly. Very well done! nt MADem Feb 2014 #83
They didn't "desecrate" it. They removed it with a crane. MADem Feb 2014 #82
Brody, eh? rdharma Feb 2014 #36
For comparison: hedgehog Feb 2014 #12
They both triumphed over Napoleon. another_liberal Feb 2014 #19
"their nation." funny, I thought Ukraine not Russia was their nation geek tragedy Feb 2014 #16
I was, of course, referencing "Svoboda." They are totally Ukrainian. another_liberal Feb 2014 #18
Like it or not, Russification is a subject that is going to upset a lot of people. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #22
"Ukrainians" JackRiddler Feb 2014 #26
I know you want to get all psuedo-philosophical and stuff.... Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #66
I guess I just have a greater sense of gratitude to men like Kutuzov. another_liberal Feb 2014 #31
Gen. Kutuzov never fought any battles on Ukrainian soil? Are you kidding? rdharma Feb 2014 #47
He was a lieutenant colonel then. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #54
That foot in your mouth uncomfortable? rdharma Feb 2014 #56
Um, no. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #65
Forget it, "Ukrainian" is a transcendent entity. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #70
It's Ukrainian, not "Ukrainian", you nitwit. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #90
The crazy thing is that anyone believes... JackRiddler Feb 2014 #68
Why wouldn't the Ukrainians love a statue of a Russian General? EX500rider Feb 2014 #30
I don't really care whether they love it not . . . another_liberal Feb 2014 #32
Sure, sure, who doesn't respect their former genocidal overlords... EX500rider Feb 2014 #33
Kutuzov? another_liberal Feb 2014 #34
"How is he responsible for crimes committed by leaders of the the Soviet Union?" EX500rider Feb 2014 #37
Actually the Israeli Philharmonic has played Wagner . . . another_liberal Feb 2014 #43
After not playing it for 70 years. n/t EX500rider Feb 2014 #45
Some turtles live twice that long. another_liberal Feb 2014 #48
Where did i say I hate Russian's? Oh that's right, nowhere. EX500rider Feb 2014 #51
No one is expecting you to be a fan . . . another_liberal Feb 2014 #53
"Letting ancient animosities die a natural death is more to the point." EX500rider Feb 2014 #61
All true. another_liberal Feb 2014 #86
Well there we go. JackRiddler Mar 2014 #96
You can make up stuff all you want... EX500rider Mar 2014 #97
You know what else is funny? JackRiddler Mar 2014 #98
Yep A lot of them have good reason to not be fond of Germans too. n/t EX500rider Mar 2014 #99
Good grief. That post takes not just the cake, but the entire dessert tray. MADem Feb 2014 #84
I find the framing of the article interesting. Who put the statue up, I wonder? MADem Feb 2014 #78
I tried to find out when that monument was constructed, another_liberal Feb 2014 #85
I looked at the video of the "destruction" of the statue, and there's plainly some "framing" going MADem Feb 2014 #87
"I think they're intending to relocate the thing." another_liberal Feb 2014 #88
If they were intending to get rid of it, it would have been easier to just take a sledgehammer MADem Feb 2014 #89
Destroying statues is a cowardly insult to art. Bill76 Mar 2014 #100
It is a lot to expect Ukrainians to love anything Russian. aquart Mar 2014 #101
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