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Tommy_Carcetti

(44,375 posts)

153. No, I'm talking to you.

Tue May 6, 2014, 09:03 AM

May 2014

Your position of "Ukraine" (in quotes) and claiming that people are arguing over a piece of cloth seems to me to be that your claiming that people shouldn't get caught up too much in national identity, and that nations and countries are fluid, self-imposed concepts.

Which is fine, I guess, if every country wants to play that game and we all buy each other Cokes.

The problem is, when you have some countries asserting the dominant position (in this instance, Russia), and other countries being forced into the subservient position (here this being Ukraine), national identity does become quite relevant.

Russia doesn't want Ukrainians to become "Earth Citizens." They want them to become Russians. And there's something fundamentally wrong about that behavior.

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Ukraine: US condemns Odessa violence as dozens die [View all] okaawhatever May 2014 OP

:( thanks okaa Cha May 2014 #1

I won't *even* say what I think of this... n/t freshwest May 2014 #8

Tweet from Samantha Power, fresh.. Cha May 2014 #17

This message was self-deleted by its author newthinking May 2014 #21

Fuck Putin. Cha May 2014 #22

Huh? The post was about the response to the violence in Odessa? newthinking May 2014 #23

Yeah, you butt in on a post of mine to friend that was about putin.. so Fuck Putin. Cha May 2014 #24

Well when you barricade yourself in a building, throwing Molotov's may be a bad idea. EX500rider May 2014 #70

This conflates two totally different things karynnj May 2014 #77

Given what that asshole did to Grozny NuclearDem May 2014 #49

And this is relevant how? JackRiddler May 2014 #56

The elected government of Ukraine didn't go anywere... EX500rider May 2014 #130

You're presenting this as what? JackRiddler May 2014 #55

Is it appropriate for her to Tweet stuff? firesalesman May 2014 #95

She's not about the complexities... JackRiddler May 2014 #107

+1 nt laurent May 2014 #112

Welcome to public diplomacy Recursion May 2014 #123

"It also called on the Ukrainian authorities "to bring all those responsible to justice." Uh, jtuck004 May 2014 #2

The 5 Billion is since 1991 and much of that has gone to agricultural and health programs. We even okaawhatever May 2014 #3

Lol. Yeah, I heard that too. n/t jtuck004 May 2014 #31

+1 n/t LarryNM May 2014 #5

Do some better research. NuclearDem May 2014 #50

"Research" is not reprinting self-justifying press releases. former9thward May 2014 #51

Five billion over twenty years is not paying for the Maidan coup. NuclearDem May 2014 #53

You've "no doubt that the West was involved." JackRiddler May 2014 #57

Absolutely not. Neither do I support making patently bogus claims. NuclearDem May 2014 #58

Agreed, that $5 billion is a misrepresentation JackRiddler May 2014 #60

No argument from me on that point. NuclearDem May 2014 #66

Why are we involved in this at all? We seem to be everywhere, and everywhere we are sabrina 1 May 2014 #114

"Why are we involved in this at all?" NuclearDem May 2014 #116

The liberal St Pete Times (now Tampa Bay Times)... EX500rider May 2014 #131

Too bad you did not link to this "research". former9thward May 2014 #145

They run Politifact...very trust worthy in my mind EX500rider May 2014 #146

And you assume Politifact nyabingi May 2014 #67

If you can find a source that claims otherwise NuclearDem May 2014 #68

What's considered a "conspiracy website" is truly nyabingi May 2014 #108

Already read it. Means nothing, just one more two-bit opinion. We have been funneling money to lots jtuck004 May 2014 #73

Assumptions. NuclearDem May 2014 #76

With us or against us. Always been that way, always will be. Only the naive and simplistic think jtuck004 May 2014 #87

Thank you, Mr. Bush. NuclearDem May 2014 #88

"My research is just fine, don't need to rely on paid for opinions of hacks to get an understanding" EX500rider May 2014 #132

Perhaps. Or perhaps you are overestimating your intra-group agreement. jtuck004 May 2014 #134

perhaps you don't want the USA to be an ally & member of the (fantastic!)EU but I do AND Sunlei May 2014 #52

You don't know a single thing about what I want. But what I don't want are warmongering assholes jtuck004 May 2014 #72

sorry to upset you. But I like when America has global friends. Sunlei May 2014 #74

"Both sides" were not throwing bombs. newthinking May 2014 #4

Look at those terrifying fascists. joshcryer May 2014 #7

Yes they made moltovs then rushed the building and burned it while people were in it newthinking May 2014 #12

That's mob behavior and I don't condone it. joshcryer May 2014 #27

Sure. Igel May 2014 #69

Can you provide a link to the "nationality stats"? newthinking May 2014 #85

You identify with pretty woman who made weapons that burned 38 people alive? newthinking May 2014 #16

If Cliven Bundy took the Clark County Court House... joshcryer May 2014 #26

There were some police that had the armbands. Not *all* police did newthinking May 2014 #35

Wouldn't that dissuade others? joshcryer May 2014 #36

You don't get it yet. It is a reign of terror. newthinking May 2014 #38

Um, they did resist Right Sector. joshcryer May 2014 #39

They aren't actively sought. That's propaganda bs newthinking May 2014 #40

Moving away from Right Sector = being Right Sector. joshcryer May 2014 #41

"You don't get it yet. It is a reign of terror." yes it is.. EX500rider May 2014 #133

What if Cliven Bundy took Kiev? JackRiddler May 2014 #59

No they didn't. joshcryer May 2014 #90

"Largely" peaceful. JackRiddler May 2014 #96

Which side had more casulties? joshcryer May 2014 #100

So if Putin handed out some cookies in Crimea... JackRiddler May 2014 #104

it seems you care more about cupcakes than AK-47s joshcryer May 2014 #111

I care about covert operations. JackRiddler May 2014 #113

I support internationalism. joshcryer May 2014 #115

You confuse international crime with internationalism. JackRiddler May 2014 #125

Aid is not criminal. joshcryer May 2014 #127

We differ, sir. JackRiddler May 2014 #138

I would have been fine with it. joshcryer May 2014 #139

Your categories are ludicrously general. JackRiddler May 2014 #141

It doesn't matter. joshcryer May 2014 #142

"Beating up leftists" Tommy_Carcetti May 2014 #103

Sometimes fascists don't actually look scary. Sometimes it looks like a cultural celebration. Jesus Malverde May 2014 #32

Look at those mobs, thousands of them, even! joshcryer May 2014 #37

Find me 500 celebrating the SS openly in the street...nt Jesus Malverde May 2014 #42

One need only look to Russia for that. joshcryer May 2014 #43

Celebrating the SS in Russia? Jesus Malverde May 2014 #44

Yes indeed. joshcryer May 2014 #45

False equivilence since this OP is about the massacre newthinking May 2014 #47

Ever heard of Chechnya? Adrahil May 2014 #61

And where was the U.S. outrage then? JackRiddler May 2014 #62

So it's OK Since the Bush admin didn't get upset? Adrahil May 2014 #64

The Chechen wars started in the mid-1990s. JackRiddler May 2014 #65

the majority of the civilian deaths happened in the Bush years... Adrahil May 2014 #93

It was pretty consistent? joshcryer May 2014 #94

Putin is a nationalist, no doubt. King_Rat May 2014 #80

I am an anti-fascist, Putin is not. joshcryer May 2014 #91

You must be confused. King_Rat May 2014 #101

Um, a sub group doesn't constitute the whole. joshcryer May 2014 #110

Doesn't have to, King_Rat May 2014 #117

They are a minority and marginalized. joshcryer May 2014 #118

Marginalized, eh? King_Rat May 2014 #119

Only attacks on civilians I've seen are from pro-Russia. joshcryer May 2014 #120

Then you are not paying attention. King_Rat May 2014 #121

I distinguish between separatists and civilian. joshcryer May 2014 #122

"turned into a mob by murderers" King_Rat May 2014 #124

Most casualties have been Maidan. joshcryer May 2014 #126

"So yes, Putin is an anti-fascist." EX500rider May 2014 #135

“Orthodox Fascism in Russia” Iterate May 2014 #48

Oh lord. JackRiddler May 2014 #63

Feel free to name a different 28 nation bloc Iterate May 2014 #82

It only expanded to 28 nations recently. JackRiddler May 2014 #84

I've lived and worked in the EU for nearly 20 years, Iterate May 2014 #89

So did I and I'm not impressed with your posts. JackRiddler May 2014 #98

The EU, on balance, isn't violently shit stirring. joshcryer May 2014 #92

"arming thugs..." JackRiddler May 2014 #97

What buildings did Maidan take by force? joshcryer May 2014 #99

Executing people in the middle of nowhere! JackRiddler May 2014 #105

You have a reading problem. joshcryer May 2014 #109

My god, you are living in a fantasy world. Tommy_Carcetti May 2014 #129

Then the Estonian foreign minister also lives there. JackRiddler May 2014 #136

But What He Actually Said, Sir The Magistrate May 2014 #137

There is no evidence that snipers in Kiev... JackRiddler May 2014 #140

The Real 'Default Assumption', Sir, Is That People Shot Are Shot By Their Opponents The Magistrate May 2014 #143

The snipers hit people on both sides. JackRiddler May 2014 #147

No One Denies Some In The Crowds Were Armed, Sir, And Shot At Police by The End The Magistrate May 2014 #148

You did the autopsies, big guy? JackRiddler May 2014 #149

Whatever, Sir The Magistrate May 2014 #150

boilerplate & boring JackRiddler May 2014 #151

hear·say [heer-sey] Tommy_Carcetti May 2014 #144

Anti-Maiden is a very bad description davidpdx May 2014 #9

they don't prefer russia. They feel close to Russia but they would be fine with federalism newthinking May 2014 #11

That was part of my point about the two who were making moltovs, it's dangerous no matter who's davidpdx May 2014 #25

vcontact (vk.com) is the Slavic version of "Facebook" newthinking May 2014 #29

vKontakte should be known to all by now. Igel May 2014 #71

I certainly don't support it from EITHER side. The Pro-Russian side was lobbing Petrobombs too. NT Adrahil May 2014 #128

There is so many people making judgements that don't know the country newthinking May 2014 #13

Thanks! JackRiddler May 2014 #106

Look again at those people on top of the building Warpy May 2014 #10

Yes of course they did newthinking May 2014 #14

I guess now it's also standard practice to have firearms and shoot people dead Bosonic May 2014 #15

By the way, they have not made a positive identification on that gunman newthinking May 2014 #18

How are you certain they were burned in place? Warpy May 2014 #19

There are videos all over newthinking May 2014 #20

Wait a second... davidpdx May 2014 #30

I stand corrected on that. newthinking May 2014 #33

Newthinking clearly used a poor choice of words in #4 davidpdx May 2014 #28

Here is the video showing Right Sector throwing moltov's newthinking May 2014 #34

It's a mess. It's going to take time to settle down. Warpy May 2014 #6

Over 150 Odesa demonstrators arrested, three criminal inquiries under way dipsydoodle May 2014 #46

Golly what's missing in the front of this article? JackRiddler May 2014 #54

Generally speaking you'll find the ones with RUSSIAN flags.. EX500rider May 2014 #75

But that just could be a false... NuclearDem May 2014 #78

Flag-lovers would agree. JackRiddler May 2014 #81

"Over thru the government" You mean the President hi tailed it out of the country before.. EX500rider May 2014 #86

There was a putsch. laurent May 2014 #154

Your whole "nations don't matter" schtick fails immediately in this situation. Tommy_Carcetti May 2014 #102

You must not be talking to me... JackRiddler May 2014 #152

No, I'm talking to you. Tommy_Carcetti May 2014 #153

Uh huh. Sure. JackRiddler May 2014 #155

"throwing petrol bombs" only good thing was someone put ladders up so people could escape the smoke. Sunlei May 2014 #79

what a tragedy Charlos May 2014 #83