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ellisonz

(27,776 posts)

83. That's not really exclusively true...

Thu Dec 22, 2011, 07:16 PM

Dec 2011

Homicides related to gang membership are only like 10% of all homicides. - I couldn't find my source but it was a DOJ sutdy of homicides from like 1993-2001.

For example in San Diego:

Nearly one-third were attributed to an argument, 26 percent to gang activity, 22 percent to domestic violence, 6 percent each related to drugs or money issues, 4 percent each for other motives and child abuse, and 2 percent happened during a robbery, according to SANDAG's study.

A disproportionate number of local homicide victims were black or Hispanic and under the age of 39, according to the study.

A firearm was used in 54 percent of the homicides, according to SANDAG.

http://www.10news.com/news/24957318/detail.html

The real problem is that far too many pissed off people have access to handguns.

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LAT: Man kills 2 Edison co-workers before turning gun on self [View all] ellisonz Dec 2011 OP

more gun-related tragedy - yet we will have those who believe the answer is not less guns, DrDan Dec 2011 #1

We have many of those who believe the answer is more guns period. ellisonz Dec 2011 #2

Since gun violence has plummeted while gun ownership has skyrocketed hack89 Dec 2011 #3

are you claiming more guns lower crime? DrDan Dec 2011 #5

No - more guns do not mean more crime hack89 Dec 2011 #6

With a main correlative... ellisonz Dec 2011 #10

So your challenge is to reduce criminal access to guns hack89 Dec 2011 #11

"Infringing" leaves a lot of space to work with. ellisonz Dec 2011 #12

But strict scrutiny is still the governing legal principle. hack89 Dec 2011 #13

That's your opinion. ellisonz Dec 2011 #15

Restricting the rights of 99.99 % of lawful gun owners is not "least" or "narrow" hack89 Dec 2011 #16

Wrong. ellisonz Dec 2011 #17

Why do you think the AWB was an effective gun law? hack89 Dec 2011 #18

I think the loopholes were ridiculous. ellisonz Dec 2011 #24

But what is the point of the AWB? hack89 Dec 2011 #27

Tides change. It is their nature. Just as pendulums swing. Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #127

So why are you so firmly against the move towards more civil rights hack89 Dec 2011 #128

Me against civil rights? You must be kidding Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #133

You are in that stream of history that supports restricting civil rights for "safety" hack89 Dec 2011 #135

To perceive the indiscriminate toting of handguns as a civil right is disingenuous at the least. Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #139

Fortunately you are in the minority for the present and the foreseeable future hack89 Dec 2011 #141

I have no idea who Nancy Grace is and I feel as safe as ever, thank you Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #142

Nancy Grace has a crime based TV show hack89 Dec 2011 #143

Sorry, I don't watch much TV Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #145

Another non-absolute is the division between "law-abiding citizens" and violent criminals saras Dec 2011 #21

So everyone is to be viewed as a potential criminal? hack89 Dec 2011 #29

How do you know that? If we had a 100 million less guns, crime might be even less. Hoyt Dec 2011 #19

The past 20 years tell us that hack89 Dec 2011 #20

Yes, steady decrease in violent crime because of tougher enforcement, aging population, better Hoyt Dec 2011 #22

I don't talk to people that feel compelled to insult me instead of debating facts. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #23

I don't see a single insult. ellisonz Dec 2011 #25

Coming from someone who supports the Patriot Act - well my irony meter just blew up. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #28

Do I need to post the list of Senate Democrats voting for the extension? n/t ellisonz Dec 2011 #82

Let's start with warrantless wiretapping - for or against? nt hack89 Dec 2011 #90

Ok. ellisonz Dec 2011 #93

So you trust the government and police to not abuse this power? hack89 Dec 2011 #94

I think present laws are adequate hack89 Dec 2011 #95

They are actually FBI and DOJ talking points. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #30

crime is down as gang membership increases. DrDan Dec 2011 #37

I have never said that more guns lead to lower crime hack89 Dec 2011 #38

so then gang membership also does not create more crime . . . correct? DrDan Dec 2011 #39

Incarceration rates for gang members are also up hack89 Dec 2011 #40

you didn't address my earlier comparison DrDan Dec 2011 #41

No - more violent gang members in jail = less violent crime. hack89 Dec 2011 #42

And if we had fewer guns, the violent crime rate might be even less. Hoyt Dec 2011 #46

But since we are on the right track and every year you are safer hack89 Dec 2011 #47

"simplistic" is eactly the word I use for your false conclusion re more guns DrDan Dec 2011 #50

That's the point - there is no correlation between guns and crime. hack89 Dec 2011 #51

and exactly how do you know that more guns did not produce more crime DrDan Dec 2011 #53

Didn't I just say that there is no correlation - we can't say that? hack89 Dec 2011 #55

you are the one making the statement that more guns do not lead to more crime. The burden of proof DrDan Dec 2011 #58

I said the facts show no increase in crime despite an increase in guns hack89 Dec 2011 #61

that is correct - and is my conclusion also DrDan Dec 2011 #64

So there are not more guns? Or is there really more crime? hack89 Dec 2011 #65

but they cannot be linked DrDan Dec 2011 #67

So there is no real justification for more stringent gun laws to further reduce crime hack89 Dec 2011 #69

"99.99 % of gun owners will never commit violent crime" boppers Dec 2011 #81

So give a me a more reasonable one. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #87

Was yours just made up? boppers Dec 2011 #96

Ok - I accept 99 percent. hack89 Dec 2011 #98

That's not really exclusively true... ellisonz Dec 2011 #83

Post hoc ergo prompter hoc. LanternWaste Dec 2011 #76

Read back over the thread and note how many times I say there is no correlation hack89 Dec 2011 #79

You're perfectly safe till you're shot by someone else Missy Vixen Dec 2011 #32

But the trend is still downwards so the present laws are working hack89 Dec 2011 #34

That is demonstrably not true slackmaster Dec 2011 #72

No, thanks Missy Vixen Dec 2011 #73

Your hyperbole does not serve well for whatever point you are trying to make here slackmaster Dec 2011 #74

Those who carry a firearm for self defense often have the attitude that ... spin Dec 2011 #124

Yeah, if California only had strict gun laws... Dr_Scholl Dec 2011 #4

The answer is less guns, period. ellisonz Dec 2011 #7

Let's assume that you are correct, how do you suggest we reduce the number of guns... spin Dec 2011 #31

New limits on the number of guns one may acquire... ellisonz Dec 2011 #33

Do you support increased taxes on beer drinkers hack89 Dec 2011 #35

Since I enjoy shooting handguns, a limit of one is totally unacceptable... spin Dec 2011 #62

I was in a hurry and mispoke. ellisonz Dec 2011 #102

I am not denying that there is a problem with gun violence in our nation... spin Dec 2011 #108

Here's the real issue. ellisonz Dec 2011 #111

I have posted the idea of requiring an NICS background check for all private sales ... spin Dec 2011 #112

Legislation such as these in question always involve trade-offs. ellisonz Dec 2011 #113

Thanks for the interesting reply... spin Dec 2011 #123

"distrust of all government which developed from our Revolutionary War " ellisonz Dec 2011 #125

I disagree of course. The anti-Federalists didn't lose the debate... spin Dec 2011 #126

"outlawing slavery was politically impossible." ellisonz Dec 2011 #129

You may be right... spin Dec 2011 #130

No guns for poor people slackmaster Dec 2011 #75

Wrong. ellisonz Dec 2011 #84

The cops in my small town in Florida are the "gun nutz"... spin Dec 2011 #106

Oh, small town's in Florida... ellisonz Dec 2011 #107

self delete, replied to wrong post. (n/t) spin Dec 2011 #109

While we have had gang related shootings here... spin Dec 2011 #110

Nice cartoon. Atypical Liberal Dec 2011 #132

How would poor people be able to afford guns? Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #134

The issue is freedom of choice, not your assessment of "need." slackmaster Dec 2011 #136

Freedom of choice for those who can afford them, you mean, right? Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #137

ellisonz is the one who wants to make a gun "a privileged object" slackmaster Dec 2011 #147

Your using this tragety to attack American's rights is disgusting. Odin2005 Dec 2011 #26

your insult aside, obviously a citizen's right to safety is secondary to you when it comes to 2A DrDan Dec 2011 #36

You have no Constitutional right to be safe. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #43

I have an inalienable right to safety - as does everyone else DrDan Dec 2011 #44

Show me the words in the Constitution. hack89 Dec 2011 #45

"self-evident" . . . guess our founding fathers never anticipated the pro-gun agenda of today DrDan Dec 2011 #48

So there must be case law - surely this issue has been raised in court before? nt hack89 Dec 2011 #49

you can't yell fire in a crowded theatre - 1A rights suspended because of safety DrDan Dec 2011 #52

And that was determined through actual court decisions. hack89 Dec 2011 #54

USSC decision DrDan Dec 2011 #56

I know that - show me a similiar case for the right to be safe. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #57

I see - USSC decision is not enough - gotcha DrDan Dec 2011 #59

That decision says nothing about the right to be safe - it was a free speech issue. hack89 Dec 2011 #60

it shows exactly that - that the USSC recognizes the right to safety - even if other constitutional DrDan Dec 2011 #63

That's a hell of a reach. hack89 Dec 2011 #66

a "hell of a reach"?????? Holmes own words . . . . DrDan Dec 2011 #68

And yet that interpretation has never been used in any other case. hack89 Dec 2011 #70

I cannot address that - I just see that the USSC recognizes one's right to safety DrDan Dec 2011 #71

No - you think they recognize the right to safety. hack89 Dec 2011 #80

Holmes own words indicate a recognition of that right . . . and to preserve it constitutional rights DrDan Dec 2011 #97

btw, meant to ask you this (got too wrapped up in Christmas shopping, I guess) DrDan Dec 2011 #99

Do you think that driving is a civil right? We seem to have plenty of traffic laws. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #100

there are times rights must be restricted - like an 8-year old should not be a gun owner with the DrDan Dec 2011 #101

Who is arguing that there should be is an unrestricted right to own guns? hack89 Dec 2011 #103

you just asked about driving - and you commented on laws around driving. DrDan Dec 2011 #104

Driving is a not a constitutional right hack89 Dec 2011 #105

it is a fundamental right of all citizens - that has been affirmed by cort decisions DrDan Dec 2011 #114

OK - start listing those cases. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #115

plenty of references available - here is one DrDan Dec 2011 #116

I would love to see guns regulated like driving hack89 Dec 2011 #117

more regulation is necessary imo DrDan Dec 2011 #118

Why? hack89 Dec 2011 #119

because citizens have a right to be safe - and that includes protection from the dangers of guns DrDan Dec 2011 #120

You need to reread the Constitution... ellisonz Dec 2011 #85

So? Show me the case law that interprets that to mean a right to be safe? hack89 Dec 2011 #86

This really isn't that hard... ellisonz Dec 2011 #88

So you can't find a single ruling explicatly stating a right to safety? hack89 Dec 2011 #89

Oh my... ellisonz Dec 2011 #91

So start listing specific cases. hack89 Dec 2011 #92

Isn't that interesting? Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #138

Call it what you want - doesn't change that basic fact. hack89 Dec 2011 #140

I call it what it as I see it. Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #144

So lets call it a civil liberty hack89 Dec 2011 #146

No, let's call it what it really is. Stupidity. Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #148

So get your friends together and try to change the Constitution hack89 Dec 2011 #149

First of all, there are no brick walls in my world. Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #151

Well, have a good life then. tn hack89 Dec 2011 #152

I imagine we perceive those things most important to us as the fulcrum of any argument. LanternWaste Dec 2011 #78

Edison office shooting victims, killer identified ellisonz Dec 2011 #8

Gunman in Edison shooting had been reprimanded by boss, source says ellisonz Dec 2011 #9

Recording of SoCal Edison Shooting 9-1-1 Call Released ellisonz Dec 2011 #14

Another gun victimized by a useless human. ileus Dec 2011 #77

hmmm LadyInAZ Dec 2011 #121

Indeed. LAGC Dec 2011 #122

Is this the society we've evolved into? Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #150

yep, very possible Enrique Dec 2011 #131