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Xithras

(16,191 posts)

47. Could have been either side at this point.

Thu Jul 17, 2014, 12:10 PM

Jul 2014

Both sides control anti-aircraft systems of the same model. The Ukrainians inherited them from the Soviet Union post-breakup, and the rebels have at least one (spotted by the media) which they claim was seized from Ukrainian forces (the Ukrainians, of course, say that Russia gave it to them).

Both sides of this conflict are reliant on poorly trained fighters with little practical experience before the current rebellion. It could have been a rebel who thought the plane was another Ukrainian fighter jet (they've been pounding the hell out of the rebels lately), or it could have been one of the Ukrainian nationalist troops who assumed that Russia was coming to visit. Or it could have been a false flag operation staged by one side against the other (either side could potentially benefit from this, if it can be conclusively pinned on the other).

Somewhere out there, in all that wreckage, is a plate with an identifying number for the missile. Unless someone has actual video of a launch or missile strike, we won't know the truth until it's found.

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Highlight:

Malaysian plane crashes on Ukraine-Russia border - live [View all] Bosonic Jul 2014 OP

Flight is MH 17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur KeepItReal Jul 2014 #1

Malaysia Airlines Plane Crashes in Ukraine With 295 on Board Bosonic Jul 2014 #2

Horrible maddezmom Jul 2014 #9

Video of a young eyewitness: joshcryer Jul 2014 #3

It was removed fast, what a shock Reter Jul 2014 #276

Another Boeing 777. icymist Jul 2014 #4

KAL007 redux. nt geek tragedy Jul 2014 #5

And Iran 655. dipsydoodle Jul 2014 #208

yep. nt geek tragedy Jul 2014 #210

And TWA 800. JackRiddler Jul 2014 #264

Other post here with a few details: joshcryer Jul 2014 #6

LBN rules are clear: the first thread to be started remains muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #85

Fair enough. joshcryer Jul 2014 #86

Interfax is claiming it was shot down KeepItReal Jul 2014 #7

Not the first time it's happened. Agschmid Jul 2014 #13

definitely shot down echochamberlain Jul 2014 #297

Flight Track brooklynite Jul 2014 #8

rumors a Russian BUK ground to air missile riverwalker Jul 2014 #10

Shoulder-fired SA-7 and SA-14 cannot reach 32K ft. Had to be a SA-11 or SA-17 (BUK). KeepItReal Jul 2014 #16

someone just ended the Ukraine conflict. geek tragedy Jul 2014 #19

I'm shocked. joshcryer Jul 2014 #23

WHich explains the sanctions on Russia this week. geek tragedy Jul 2014 #26

Watch before lifenews sanitizes its videos Bosonic Jul 2014 #36

Wow, downloading now. joshcryer Jul 2014 #40

Czech rebels? Capt. Obvious Jul 2014 #66

Apologies, meant Chechen. joshcryer Jul 2014 #69

You had me scrambling Capt. Obvious Jul 2014 #76

I think the poster meant Chechen rebels hedgehog Jul 2014 #71

Thanks. joshcryer Jul 2014 #72

Hope I wasn't being patronizing, hedgehog Jul 2014 #79

No worries. joshcryer Jul 2014 #83

Greetings fellow migrainer. But I've had concussions, too. I'm lucky I know my name... freshwest Jul 2014 #284

What a lovely landscape, good roads, infrastructure. I can't help but think of the Bundies. freshwest Jul 2014 #282

I only see semantics when Ukrainian arms makers under contract to Russia spread these around. freshwest Jul 2014 #279

Jump to conclusions, no mourning for 295 innocent loves. Take a break from the hate for a minute. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #32

You then believe that individuals are unable to both speculate and mourn simultaneously LanternWaste Jul 2014 #93

Speculation is a de facto example of jumping to conclusions without evidence. You can mourn and Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #102

Yes, the terrible speculation caused by the rebel leader claiming responsibility. jeff47 Jul 2014 #150

More speculation....Twitter....great source you got there .... Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #159

Yes, we can't possible trust the rebel leader's own twitter account. jeff47 Jul 2014 #170

Exactly my thoughts. nt Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #55

Or . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #245

You just never quit do you? maddezmom Jul 2014 #246

Oh, you don't like . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #247

Wtf? Who is talking about starting a war maddezmom Jul 2014 #250

No one is talking about it but mccain and another liberal. Cha Jul 2014 #268

This schtick is getting old to me maddezmom Jul 2014 #270

I Agree, Ma'am: The Feigned Innocence Just Reeks.... The Magistrate Jul 2014 #273

"Misidentified." joshcryer Jul 2014 #21

Commercial airlines fly that corridor frequently. It should not have been deemed a hostile. KeepItReal Jul 2014 #68

I'm thinking it was just bad luck. joshcryer Jul 2014 #70

Sounds like that is exactly what happened. They thought it was a cargo plane. misterhighwasted Jul 2014 #163

DU thread indicated that to be the case. Tweets and several videos posted: freshwest Jul 2014 #287

That was bad enough. Now they've done themselves in. They must quit this. freshwest Jul 2014 #275

Putin's troop build-up & his BUK launchers. One of his people fired the missile, probably drunk. Sunlei Jul 2014 #108

Commercial airline shot down. MoonchildCA Jul 2014 #11

That would be two for Russia and one for the US. CBGLuthier Jul 2014 #30

Depends on TWA 800. JackRiddler Jul 2014 #263

So you're saying the Russians shot it down CreekDog Jul 2014 #290

TWA 800? I don't think so. JackRiddler Jul 2014 #293

the Ukrainians shot down TWA 800? is that what you're saying? CreekDog Jul 2014 #300

Sorry if you're not reading. JackRiddler Jul 2014 #302

The entire world should crush all those responsible. conservaphobe Jul 2014 #12

Will you be at the front . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #140

Oh no, disturbing and sad. There are many media speculations. Ugh. SummerSnow Jul 2014 #14

yes... speculating it was shot down by the Russians OKNancy Jul 2014 #15

If it's true I wonder if Putin is rekindling an old grudge SummerSnow Jul 2014 #29

It would have had to be at pretty high altitude-- TwilightGardener Jul 2014 #17

~10km apparently Bosonic Jul 2014 #20

Yep. They're already saying it would take a very advanced air defense system. nt conservaphobe Jul 2014 #24

Yeah, the sort that a ragtag group of "self-defense rebels" always have on hand... TwilightGardener Jul 2014 #28

Could have been either side at this point. Xithras Jul 2014 #47

There is no Ukranian AA deployed in Donbas. joshcryer Jul 2014 #54

I don't think the world will wait for an investigation Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #58

I'm sure there's some somewhere. Xithras Jul 2014 #65

Eh, they admitted it before realizing what they did. joshcryer Jul 2014 #67

The Ukrainians, as the Russians like to point out, don't really control the east. Igel Jul 2014 #106

I think it will have come from Russia, either directly or via TwilightGardener Jul 2014 #57

While true.... Adrahil Jul 2014 #137

The sort that groups being armed by Russia would have on hand. nt hack89 Jul 2014 #51

Just sad BumRushDaShow Jul 2014 #18

MAS confirm has lost contact with MH17 brooklynite Jul 2014 #22

Well, this should be interesting Igel Jul 2014 #25

Already blaming NATO / CT flowing rapidly. joshcryer Jul 2014 #34

Of course. Igel Jul 2014 #45

Twitter fascists saying the "airpspace was closed." joshcryer Jul 2014 #27

Making some awfully big assumptions there. Igel Jul 2014 #56

I was saying their original flight path avoided Ukraine: joshcryer Jul 2014 #64

"Fascist murderers." Igel Jul 2014 #121

Not at all. joshcryer Jul 2014 #128

AP: Malaysian jet shot down over Ukraine, official says DonViejo Jul 2014 #31

My God. BlueCheese Jul 2014 #33

I'm sure McCain will call a press conference Mr.Bill Jul 2014 #35

Andrea Mitchell has him on right now and he's already inferring blame on Obama. SaveOurDemocracy Jul 2014 #46

Why MSNBC gives him the time of day, I have no idea. MoonchildCA Jul 2014 #99

He just did, on Andrea Greenspan's show. tridim Jul 2014 #48

Well at least he's predictable. n/t Mr.Bill Jul 2014 #61

Walked by the teevee and saw his ugly mug BumRushDaShow Jul 2014 #74

Rebel leaders Facebook" We warned them not to fly in our sky" riverwalker Jul 2014 #37

Ugh. Monsters. Just monsters, no othe word for those pigs. nt geek tragedy Jul 2014 #38

Oh dear god maddezmom Jul 2014 #41

Christ. joshcryer Jul 2014 #42

Time to crush them. conservaphobe Jul 2014 #49

When do you ship out, eager soldier? nt Union Scribe Jul 2014 #77

I doubt they'll ever leave their armchair. Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #154

Key Board Commandos warrant46 Jul 2014 #164

Good work, there, Pooty-poot. TwilightGardener Jul 2014 #59

They went too far. herding cats Jul 2014 #63

Since the plane was painted in Russian colors of white, red and blue . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #152

You've got to be fucking kidding Bosonic Jul 2014 #156

Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #161

Their central office needs to deliver them the same talking points, they appear TwilightGardener Jul 2014 #185

Fascinating . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #191

No, I am not "kidding" . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #183

It doesn't. Agschmid Jul 2014 #184

You make as much sense as you usually do Bosonic Jul 2014 #186

Then don't bother replying to my comments . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #189

I ignored your first ridiculous post to my OP Bosonic Jul 2014 #193

Why is it ridiculous? another_liberal Jul 2014 #197

you walking these "theories" back yet? snooper2 Jul 2014 #242

Why would one "Walk back" a theory? another_liberal Jul 2014 #244

No one frightened or scared or whatever you want to call it.... maddezmom Jul 2014 #271

Which means you've entertained EVERY possibility, except one CreekDog Jul 2014 #291

Why would the Ukrainian Air Force shoot down a Boeing at 30,000 ft headed east? EX500rider Jul 2014 #240

Are you for fucking real? IronGate Jul 2014 #171

Sadly, yes maddezmom Jul 2014 #173

No, and there is no evidence yet for any other theory. another_liberal Jul 2014 #188

Twitter post from Strelkov. Igel Jul 2014 #202

It is now being reported that the attack may have been intended for Putin. another_liberal Jul 2014 #207

It's not the similar, in fact it has two extra engines... Agschmid Jul 2014 #215

Maybe so . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #243

And I hate to source RT but even they are saying this... Agschmid Jul 2014 #251

I really doubt the Ukrainians want to kill putin and maybe get nuked in return. EX500rider Jul 2014 #241

That's some twisted logic that would make a pretzel envious. nt herding cats Jul 2014 #178

I think it makes a lot more sense than blaming Russia . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #187

You do realize the plane was shot down deep in rebel territory? herding cats Jul 2014 #190

Are you suggesting Ukraine's air and land forces aren't also, "deep in rebel territory?" another_liberal Jul 2014 #192

You need a map. Igel Jul 2014 #204

Why do you think it had to be over Ukrainian-controled territory to be downed by them? another_liberal Jul 2014 #212

Because you either use radar or sight. Igel Jul 2014 #274

Excellent Comment, Sir The Magistrate Jul 2014 #277

You seem to be willing to blame anybody but Russia CreekDog Jul 2014 #292

Except Russian military aircraft are not painted white, red and blue hack89 Jul 2014 #248

Highly unlikely. blackspade Jul 2014 #254

Um, it's been verified to have been a SAM MohRokTah Jul 2014 #272

Do we know for certain who authorered this Facebook page? hedgehog Jul 2014 #73

It wasn't FB, it was vk.com, his official site: joshcryer Jul 2014 #205

Thank you for that information! hedgehog Jul 2014 #214

vk is vkontakte, a Russian FB analogue. JackRiddler Jul 2014 #294

Nitpicking. joshcryer Jul 2014 #295

Translation. Igel Jul 2014 #75

Is there a link to the FB post? Union Scribe Jul 2014 #80

Sorry, I don't do Twitter. Igel Jul 2014 #226

Sky News reports the same info you posted. KeepItReal Jul 2014 #97

Warned who? And the people on the plane are civilians. Renew Deal Jul 2014 #112

Rebels warning/taunting Ukrainian military. MH 17 flew into hostile airspace for some reason. KeepItReal Jul 2014 #120

I think that is pushing planes from Crimea and the Black Sea into mainland Ukraine. jakeXT Jul 2014 #145

Yes and no. Igel Jul 2014 #227

Also maybe the airspace around the closed airports is closed jakeXT Jul 2014 #232

Just mentioned on MSNBC now... Agschmid Jul 2014 #199

Wow Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #39

Very sad :( Marrah_G Jul 2014 #43

I cannot believe they did this. herding cats Jul 2014 #44

The same thing as any terrorists, I guess rebecca_herman Jul 2014 #60

They were thinking they were shooting down a SU-25 or An-26. Igel Jul 2014 #62

SKY-NEWS, seems to confirm the missile? Agschmid Jul 2014 #50

Rebels confirm it in post #37. joshcryer Jul 2014 #52

That's absolutely false. LisaL Jul 2014 #98

Of course they are. joshcryer Jul 2014 #100

They never admitted to either, either now or before. LisaL Jul 2014 #110

They said they shot a plane down. joshcryer Jul 2014 #114

They did know which plane it was. A military plane. LisaL Jul 2014 #125

"previous evening" joshcryer Jul 2014 #131

And? LisaL Jul 2014 #134

This plane got shot down a couple of hours ago? joshcryer Jul 2014 #136

What is your point? You claim rebels admitted it. But the truth is they denied it. LisaL Jul 2014 #142

The original statement links videos to this crash. joshcryer Jul 2014 #144

What original statement? LisaL Jul 2014 #153

They took down their original statement. joshcryer Jul 2014 #158

What does it say, exactly? LisaL Jul 2014 #166

Here: joshcryer Jul 2014 #175

You may want to look at this thread: freshwest Jul 2014 #288

They bragged about it when they thought it was a Ukrainian military jet. geek tragedy Jul 2014 #107

But they did shoot down a military jet. LisaL Jul 2014 #111

This morning? nt geek tragedy Jul 2014 #115

That's what they're saying now. joshcryer Jul 2014 #117

The well-oiled Russian disinformation machine, clackety-clack, clackety-clack, TwilightGardener Jul 2014 #123

Yes, the military plane was shot down. LisaL Jul 2014 #129

"previous evening" joshcryer Jul 2014 #133

It was a Su-25. Igel Jul 2014 #130

They're trying to down that downing to this one. joshcryer Jul 2014 #139

They claimed they shot down a turboprop An-26 at the same place, today muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #218

Another lost Malaysian airliner? Arkana Jul 2014 #53

Almost certainly. Igel Jul 2014 #81

This one's not lost... brooklynite Jul 2014 #206

French media just saying now mylye2222 Jul 2014 #78

Let's not forget the people lost today. FourScore Jul 2014 #82

Yes. Whatever the cause, it is a heartbreaking tragedy. KeepItReal Jul 2014 #101

There should be immediate calls from the rest of the world that Russia TwilightGardener Jul 2014 #84

Good luck with that Bosonic Jul 2014 #122

Unbelievable. TwilightGardener Jul 2014 #126

An airliner has crashed. dipsydoodle Jul 2014 #87

Ukraine detected Buk missile launch: joshcryer Jul 2014 #90

True, but the large debris field they are reporting lead many to speculate it blew up, etc maddezmom Jul 2014 #91

Conjecture is pretty accurate when people say, "We shot it down". jeff47 Jul 2014 #168

Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #88

Ya ok Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #89

Train You Ride Is Never Late, Sir... The Magistrate Jul 2014 #95

You make me chuckle, Sir maddezmom Jul 2014 #105

Sir, the propaganda police are out in force davidpdx Jul 2014 #253

funny stuff ! :) haha nt steve2470 Jul 2014 #266

How have you not been banned yet? nt geek tragedy Jul 2014 #96

My thoughts exactly - this is one of the worst karynnj Jul 2014 #260

Yeah, sure, that's very likely. TwilightGardener Jul 2014 #104

Really? IronGate Jul 2014 #118

RIA Novosti just posted an interesting article. Igel Jul 2014 #92

The barbarians on the ground are picking through the luggage and wreckage already Sunlei Jul 2014 #94

They will "salvage" anything they can. joshcryer Jul 2014 #103

shabby looking "country-people" are picking through the luggage right now. Sunlei Jul 2014 #119

Disgusting Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #211

18 years to the day that TWA 800 was shot down. joanbarnes Jul 2014 #109

Er, well...officially, not shot down. TwilightGardener Jul 2014 #113

TWA 800 was not shot down. Renew Deal Jul 2014 #116

Have some more cool aid... joanbarnes Jul 2014 #132

I think you drank it all... Agschmid Jul 2014 #143

You're the one posting conspiracy theories Renew Deal Jul 2014 #146

Alex Jones acolytes are here KinMd Jul 2014 #177

My wife Uncle worked on the TW 800 wreckage analysis for Boeing brooklynite Jul 2014 #195

It was 100% shot down Reter Jul 2014 #278

Link? Renew Deal Jul 2014 #280

Everyone knows it tested positives for explosives Reter Jul 2014 #286

Ukraine also shot one down 14 years ago jakeXT Jul 2014 #172

With our magic missiles that travel 2x their maximum range. jeff47 Jul 2014 #176

Anderson Cooper just said TWA 800 was "shot down." Renew Deal Jul 2014 #233

Good lord. I'm sure that video will be available soon too. Agschmid Jul 2014 #237

"Quite a few mistakes so far today" Reter Jul 2014 #281

It was. Agschmid Jul 2014 #283

Watch the recent Netflix one Reter Jul 2014 #285

He just made the retraction Renew Deal Jul 2014 #238

Good. Agschmid Jul 2014 #239

Bosonic Diclotican Jul 2014 #124

Unfortunately, shooting down unarmed airliners IS something that countries do. Maedhros Jul 2014 #216

Whoever did this must come forward immediately, amandabeech Jul 2014 #289

amandabeech Diclotican Jul 2014 #298

Horrific! get the red out Jul 2014 #127

Malaysian Airlines again . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #135

OMG! FOX 'News' is showing the bodies!!! icymist Jul 2014 #138

Stay classy, FUX. TwilightGardener Jul 2014 #141

If they are, others probably are as well Renew Deal Jul 2014 #147

That's what they are claiming as they show this. icymist Jul 2014 #149

All I can say is that it is more common in other places Renew Deal Jul 2014 #155

Totally irresponsible and callous! LongTomH Jul 2014 #209

Curious timing Rapillion Jul 2014 #148

Crap post. Agschmid Jul 2014 #179

Wow Rapillion Jul 2014 #201

It doesn't take much to recognize a conspiracy theory. Agschmid Jul 2014 #203

Except no theory was stated Rapillion Jul 2014 #217

Why don't you tell us who you think benefits? maddezmom Jul 2014 #180

Because I don't know nt Rapillion Jul 2014 #196

Well by your post above you see to have someone in mind. Why not say? maddezmom Jul 2014 #198

Who do you think did this? hrmjustin Jul 2014 #182

It is possible Rapillion Jul 2014 #200

Did Pro-Russian separatists shoot down the WRONG PLANE?? misterhighwasted Jul 2014 #151

Just heard on Sky News that they are claiming the Ukrainians did it Renew Deal Jul 2014 #157

Sky seems to have the most "facts"... Agschmid Jul 2014 #162

One of the claims was that this is not a populated area Renew Deal Jul 2014 #165

And a whole lot images made it into social media... Agschmid Jul 2014 #167

Problem is it was hit over rebel territory. jeff47 Jul 2014 #181

that would seem to be the most logical speculation OKNancy Jul 2014 #160

Look upthread. Igel Jul 2014 #169

Here are the Ukrainian planes the rebels have shot down lately: KeepItReal Jul 2014 #174

MH17: Dozens of bodies scattered around wreckage: Report brooklynite Jul 2014 #194

Yahoo is reporting 23 Americans on board. TexasTowelie Jul 2014 #213

CNN Analyst making a good point: no smoke trail leading to crash site in explosion video alcibiades_mystery Jul 2014 #219

It's a valid point especially since the impact video was released. Agschmid Jul 2014 #220

If it caught on fire like on the movies. Igel Jul 2014 #230

Video of alleged Buk leaving Torez/Sneznoe area: joshcryer Jul 2014 #221

Pic of Buk in Torez today, hours before shooting: joshcryer Jul 2014 #222

I'm willing to wait and see where the evidence leads. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2014 #223

DNR claims to have the black boxes. joshcryer Jul 2014 #225

They just lost credibility Bad Thoughts Jul 2014 #228

And call for international investigators. joshcryer Jul 2014 #229

Another Malasian 777 warrprayer Jul 2014 #224

Don't see any evidence of transponder failure. Igel Jul 2014 #231

There is no evidence whatsoever at present. dipsydoodle Jul 2014 #234

Strictly speaking there's no evidence I have of a plane crash. Igel Jul 2014 #252

Why so concerned the pro-Russian rebels might get blamed? CreekDog Jul 2014 #265

I just flipped over to RT to get their take on this and a commentator is saying that totodeinhere Jul 2014 #235

AP did photograph them driving around jakeXT Jul 2014 #236

of course that's what they're saying, their side just murdered 300 people geek tragedy Jul 2014 #255

And now Putin is weighing in. totodeinhere Jul 2014 #267

yup. He can expect a massive new round of sanctions as a result. nt geek tragedy Jul 2014 #269

Malaysia Airlines MH17 was flying just 1,000ft above restricted airspace jakeXT Jul 2014 #249

Weird headline, the plane was flying almost as high as it could. joshcryer Jul 2014 #256

10000 ft more is possible jakeXT Jul 2014 #257

You really don't put a plane full of people at the service ceiling though. joshcryer Jul 2014 #258

40000 maybe jakeXT Jul 2014 #259

Ukraine told MH17 to fly lower... Air India did fly at 40000 ft jakeXT Jul 2014 #299

As I understand it... BlueCheese Jul 2014 #261

That is exactly what happened. joshcryer Jul 2014 #262

Typical R3druM Jul 2014 #301

Putin's game up echochamberlain Jul 2014 #296