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In reply to the discussion: LAT: Man kills 2 Edison co-workers before turning gun on self [View all]spin
(17,493 posts)108. I am not denying that there is a problem with gun violence in our nation...
Far from it. I have a vested interest in trying to reduce gun violence as I have a considerable amount of time and money invested in my shooting hobby.
The good news is that gun violence and violent crime has been dropping in the United States.
December 20, 2011 8:19 AM
Analysts: Better policing behind cut in crime
(CBS News)
WASHINGTON - The latest FBI figures show there's a lot less violent crime across the country this year, a trend experts attribute to a larger investment in crime prevention by government and law enforcement.
The 6.5 percent drop in violent crime continues a five-year decline that shows the numbers of murders, rapes and robberies steadily falling....emphasis added
The FBI said these are not statistical flukes. Between January and June nationwide, violent crime fell sharply across all categories:
Murder down 5.7 percent
Rape down 5.1 percent
Robbery down 7.7 percent
Assault down 5.9 percent
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500202_162-57345479/analysts-better-policing-behind-cut-in-crime/
For public safety, it's a golden age
Crime just keeps falling
Steve Chapman December 25, 2011
The 1950s are often recalled as a golden age in American life stable families, rising incomes, wholesome TV shows and low crime rates. Doesn't sound like 2011, does it? When it comes to crime, though, there is a striking similarity: We are, believe it or not, in a new golden age.
Crime has never subsided as a topic for local news or prime-time detective shows. Anyone looking for reasons to fear going out of the house can find plenty. But the truth is our streets are safer than they have been in a long time.
***snip***
Six-month drops don't mean much by themselves. But this one continues an established trend. Crime peaked in 1991 and fell steadily before flattening out somewhat in the mid-2000s. But since 2006, both violent crime and property crime have plunged.
Today, your chance of being murdered is lower than it was in the late 1950s, a time of enviable peace and order. Robberies have been cut by more than half since their peak. Car thefts are about as common as they were when the Beatles first appeared on "The Ed Sullivan Show."
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-oped-1225-chapman-20111225,0,152834.column
Oddly enough this drop in crime occurred while the sale of firearms skyrocketed and "shall issue" concealed carry spread across our nation. While I believe that better policing is responsible for the drop in crime, it is also obvious that more guns do not cause more crime. This graph shows that between Nov. 1998 and Dec. 2009 over 110 million background checks were run by the NICS.

(source: http://www.ammoland.com/2010/01/13/gun-owners-buy-14-million-plus-guns-in-2009/)
Even more background checks were run in 2010 than 2009.

(source: http://www.ammoland.com/2011/12/05/november-firearms-related-nics-background-checks-up-16-5-percent/)
And the increase continued in 2011.

(source: http://www.ammoland.com/2011/12/05/november-firearms-related-nics-background-checks-up-16-5-percent/)
Therefore I don't see a tremendous benefit by limiting the number of firearms an honest person can own. My firearms are stored properly and endanger no one. Under your system I would have to get rid of about 20 firearms or get a permit as a collector or target shooter. None of my firearms would be considered collector items as they are not antiques or rare and all have been used extensively. I also feel that a license to own more than a certain number of firearms could eventually prove to be expensive and would serve to deny that right to many who are not rich.
I personally feel that requiring an NICS background check for all sales of firearms including private sales would have more effect. Admittedly this is a very unpopular idea with many gun owners. It should also be possible to set up a system that tracks firearm purchases and sales by individuals without recording serial numbers. Using that system a person who bought and sold a large number of firearms could be flagged as a possible straw purchaser.
Of course, the penalties for engaging in the straw purchase or smuggling of firearms to the inner cities of our nation should be VERY severe. I would like to see anyone convicted of such activities be charged as an accessory to any crimes that are committed with the weapons they trafficked. Few people would be willing to straw purchase a firearm if they knew they could be possibly changed as an accessory to murder.
I would also like to see anyone caught carrying a firearm illegally face prison time rather than a slap on the wrist. If the individual also had a conviction as a violent felon, he should be put away for a LONG time. This would discourage many violent criminals from always packing heat and reduce the tragedies that result when they feel disrespected.
Our approach to solving the problem differs in that you favor punishing the many for the actions of the few and I believe in focusing on those who are the cause.
You mention that I should reconcile myself to to "the fact that not all gun control advocates are trying to take your guns." I do believe that. Unfortunately the actions of our government under both the Bush and Obama administration in their War on Terror worry me. We are gradually losing the rights we were granted in the Bill of Rights. The Patriot Act and the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 have eroded our freedoms. This is a very disturbing trend. Who can say for sure that draconian gun legislation might not be passed in the near future in order to combat terrorism?
USA PATRIOT Act
The USA PATRIOT Act (commonly known as the "Patriot Act"
The act, a response to the terrorist attacks of September 11th, dramatically reduced restrictions on law enforcement agencies' ability to search telephone, e-mail communications, medical, financial, and other records; eased restrictions on foreign intelligence gathering within the United States; expanded the Secretary of the Treasurys authority to regulate financial transactions, particularly those involving foreign individuals and entities; and broadened the discretion of law enforcement and immigration authorities in detaining and deporting immigrants suspected of terrorism-related acts. The act also expanded the definition of terrorism to include domestic terrorism, thus enlarging the number of activities to which the USA PATRIOT Acts expanded law enforcement powers can be applied.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act
National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012
The National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) for Fiscal Year 2012 is a controversial bill that has been passed by both houses of Congress separately, and a final version approved by the Senate on December 15, 2011.[1][2][3] Though the White House[4] and Senate sponsors[5] maintain that the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists (AUMF) already grants presidential authority for indefinite detention, the Act legislatively codifies[6] the President's authority to indefinitely detain terrorism suspects, including American citizens, without trial as defined in Title X, Subtitle D, SEC 1031(a-e) of the bill.[7] Because those who may be held indefinitely include U.S. citizens arrested on American soil, and because that detention may be by the military, the Act has received critical attention by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and media sources.[8][9][10][11][12]...emphasis added
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2012
I am familiar with European gun laws but I would like to point out that there is a considerable difference in culture between the European nations and the United States as well as a difference in the relative size of European nations and the U.S. (All of Europe can fit into one half of the United States and the United Kingdom could fit inside of Michigan and ten other states.) I could also point out that prior to WWII, Germany passed the 1938 German Weapons Act which forbid firearm and ammunition ownership by Jews. I have little admiration for the history of gun laws in Europe. I prefer to live in a nation that trusts most citizens enough to allow them to own firearms without oppressive regulations.
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more gun-related tragedy - yet we will have those who believe the answer is not less guns,
DrDan
Dec 2011
#1
Restricting the rights of 99.99 % of lawful gun owners is not "least" or "narrow"
hack89
Dec 2011
#16
You are in that stream of history that supports restricting civil rights for "safety"
hack89
Dec 2011
#135
To perceive the indiscriminate toting of handguns as a civil right is disingenuous at the least.
Starboard Tack
Dec 2011
#139
I have no idea who Nancy Grace is and I feel as safe as ever, thank you
Starboard Tack
Dec 2011
#142
Another non-absolute is the division between "law-abiding citizens" and violent criminals
saras
Dec 2011
#21
How do you know that? If we had a 100 million less guns, crime might be even less.
Hoyt
Dec 2011
#19
Yes, steady decrease in violent crime because of tougher enforcement, aging population, better
Hoyt
Dec 2011
#22
I don't talk to people that feel compelled to insult me instead of debating facts. nt
hack89
Dec 2011
#23
Coming from someone who supports the Patriot Act - well my irony meter just blew up. nt
hack89
Dec 2011
#28
you are the one making the statement that more guns do not lead to more crime. The burden of proof
DrDan
Dec 2011
#58
So there is no real justification for more stringent gun laws to further reduce crime
hack89
Dec 2011
#69
Your hyperbole does not serve well for whatever point you are trying to make here
slackmaster
Dec 2011
#74
Let's assume that you are correct, how do you suggest we reduce the number of guns...
spin
Dec 2011
#31
I have posted the idea of requiring an NICS background check for all private sales ...
spin
Dec 2011
#112
your insult aside, obviously a citizen's right to safety is secondary to you when it comes to 2A
DrDan
Dec 2011
#36
"self-evident" . . . guess our founding fathers never anticipated the pro-gun agenda of today
DrDan
Dec 2011
#48
So there must be case law - surely this issue has been raised in court before? nt
hack89
Dec 2011
#49
That decision says nothing about the right to be safe - it was a free speech issue.
hack89
Dec 2011
#60
it shows exactly that - that the USSC recognizes the right to safety - even if other constitutional
DrDan
Dec 2011
#63
I cannot address that - I just see that the USSC recognizes one's right to safety
DrDan
Dec 2011
#71
Holmes own words indicate a recognition of that right . . . and to preserve it constitutional rights
DrDan
Dec 2011
#97
Do you think that driving is a civil right? We seem to have plenty of traffic laws. nt
hack89
Dec 2011
#100
there are times rights must be restricted - like an 8-year old should not be a gun owner with the
DrDan
Dec 2011
#101
it is a fundamental right of all citizens - that has been affirmed by cort decisions
DrDan
Dec 2011
#114
because citizens have a right to be safe - and that includes protection from the dangers of guns
DrDan
Dec 2011
#120
I imagine we perceive those things most important to us as the fulcrum of any argument.
LanternWaste
Dec 2011
#78