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spin

(17,493 posts)
112. I have posted the idea of requiring an NICS background check for all private sales ...
Sun Dec 25, 2011, 01:38 AM
Dec 2011

in the Gungeon and the results were mixed. I was actually surprised that it got as much support as it did from gun owners. However it was pointed out that such laws would have to be enacted at the state level as the federal government regulates only interstate commerce. Of course the NRA opposes this idea as it is even stronger than a requirement to perform NICS checks at gun shows.

I do not feel that Obama poses an serious threat to gun owners. Nor do I disagree with his views on commonsense gun control measures as he does indeed propose reasonable improvements to these laws. However as I have mentioned I am worried about the power that is being granted by Congress to future Presidents and agencies of the government and the military in the efforts to thwart terrorism. I had hoped that some of the intrusions into personal liberty that were taken by the Bush administration would be overturned by the fact that for two years Democrats had control of both houses of Congress and the Presidency. Senator Obama in 2006 showed concern about abuses of the Patriot Act. His floor speech to Congress shows at that time he had some of the same worries that I have.



TOPIC: Homeland Security
February 16, 2006
Floor Statement of Senator Barack Obama
S.2271 - USA PATRIOT Act Reauthorization
Complete Text


Mr. President, four years ago, following one of the most devastating attacks in our nation's history, Congress passed the USA PATRIOT Act to give our nation's law enforcement the tools they needed to track down terrorists who plot and lurk within our own borders and all over the world - terrorists who, right now, are looking to exploit weaknesses in our laws and our security to carry out even deadlier attacks than we saw on September 11th.

We all agreed that we needed legislation to make it harder for suspected terrorists to go undetected in this country. Americans everywhere wanted that.

But soon after the PATRIOT Act passed, a few years before I ever arrived in the Senate, I began hearing concerns from people of every background and political leaning that this law didn't just provide law enforcement the powers it needed to keep us safe, but powers it didn't need to invade our privacy without cause or suspicion.

***snip***

The Majority Leader's tactics are even more troubling because we will need to work on a bipartisan basis to address national security challenges in the weeks and months to come. In particular, members on both sides of the aisle will need to take a careful look at President Bush's use of warrantless wiretaps and determine the right balance between protecting our security and safeguarding our civil liberties. This is a complex issue. But only by working together and avoiding election-year politicking will we be able to give our government the necessary tools to wage the war on terror without sacrificing the rule of law....emphasis added
http://obamaspeeches.com/053-Floor-Statement-S2271-PATRIOT-Act-Reauthorization-Obama-Speech.htm


However Obama has decided since gaining office to agree to grant even more power to the government despite the threat it would pose to civil liberty.



Obama Drops Veto Threat Over Military Authorization Bill After Revisions
By CHARLIE SAVAGE
Published: December 14, 2011

WASHINGTON — President Obama will not veto a military authorization bill that contains several disputed provisions about the treatment of terrorism prisoners, the White House announced Wednesday, signaling a likely end to a political battle over detainees and executive power.

***snip***

But the bill includes a narrower provision, drafted by the Senate, authorizing the government to detain, without trial, suspected members of Al Qaeda or its allies — or those who “substantially supported” them — bolstering the authorization it enacted a decade ago against the perpetrators of the Sept. 11 attacks.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/us/politics/obama-wont-veto-military-authorization-bill.html



The National Defense Authorization Act Explained: Part One in a Two-Part Series of Columns on the Act
December 21, 2011
Joanne Mariner

Passed by the House and Senate last week, the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) now awaits the president’s signature. Because of its controversial provisions on indefinite detention, President Obama had threatened to veto the bill back in May, when the House passed one version of it, and again in November, when the Senate passed another, somewhat different version of it.

***snip***

But last week, after the House and Senate reconciled their two versions of the bill, the president lifted his veto threat. His press secretary explained in a written statement that the revised bill was considered acceptable because problematic provisions had been removed, and because “the most recent changes give the President additional discretion in determining how the law will be implemented, consistent with our values and the rule of law.”

Numerous human rights advocates, civil libertarians, and members of Congress disagree. Human Rights Watch said that President Obama’s decision not to veto the bill “does enormous damage to the rule of law both in the US and abroad.” The ACLU said, “if President Obama signs this bill, it will damage both his legacy and American’s reputation for upholding the rule of law.” Representative Jerrold Nadler, who voted against the bill, said that it presents a “momentous challenge to one of the founding principles of the United States—that no person may be deprived of his liberty without due process of law.”...emphasis added
http://verdict.justia.com/2011/12/21/the-national-defense-authorization-act-explained


While I don't expect large scale abuses of civil rights to occur anytime soon, I fear what may happen in the future when a President like "Tricky Dick" Nixon decides to use his powers to his advantage to silence his critics. Also if the OWS movement grows and violent riots occur, could the rioters be deemed terrorists and imprisoned without trial? I'm sure many in the 1% would support such measures. The leaders of the riots might be nonviolent but agents provocateurs could infiltrate their movement and provoke violence in order to enable the government to crack down.

If the trend continues and we continue to lose our rights due to the War on Drugs and the War on Terror, is it not possible that eventually the Second Amendment may also be weakened and cast aside. If that were to happen, the 1% could run the country any damn way they please and the 99% could definitely be defined as slaves. The freedoms our Founding Fathers granted us would be finally relegated to the scrap yard of history. Our nation would be a modern example of feudalism. One nation of the rich and the corporations, for the rich and the corporations and by the rich and the corporations.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin











Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

more gun-related tragedy - yet we will have those who believe the answer is not less guns, DrDan Dec 2011 #1
We have many of those who believe the answer is more guns period. ellisonz Dec 2011 #2
Since gun violence has plummeted while gun ownership has skyrocketed hack89 Dec 2011 #3
are you claiming more guns lower crime? DrDan Dec 2011 #5
No - more guns do not mean more crime hack89 Dec 2011 #6
With a main correlative... ellisonz Dec 2011 #10
So your challenge is to reduce criminal access to guns hack89 Dec 2011 #11
"Infringing" leaves a lot of space to work with. ellisonz Dec 2011 #12
But strict scrutiny is still the governing legal principle. hack89 Dec 2011 #13
That's your opinion. ellisonz Dec 2011 #15
Restricting the rights of 99.99 % of lawful gun owners is not "least" or "narrow" hack89 Dec 2011 #16
Wrong. ellisonz Dec 2011 #17
Why do you think the AWB was an effective gun law? hack89 Dec 2011 #18
I think the loopholes were ridiculous. ellisonz Dec 2011 #24
But what is the point of the AWB? hack89 Dec 2011 #27
Tides change. It is their nature. Just as pendulums swing. Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #127
So why are you so firmly against the move towards more civil rights hack89 Dec 2011 #128
Me against civil rights? You must be kidding Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #133
You are in that stream of history that supports restricting civil rights for "safety" hack89 Dec 2011 #135
To perceive the indiscriminate toting of handguns as a civil right is disingenuous at the least. Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #139
Fortunately you are in the minority for the present and the foreseeable future hack89 Dec 2011 #141
I have no idea who Nancy Grace is and I feel as safe as ever, thank you Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #142
Nancy Grace has a crime based TV show hack89 Dec 2011 #143
Sorry, I don't watch much TV Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #145
Another non-absolute is the division between "law-abiding citizens" and violent criminals saras Dec 2011 #21
So everyone is to be viewed as a potential criminal? hack89 Dec 2011 #29
How do you know that? If we had a 100 million less guns, crime might be even less. Hoyt Dec 2011 #19
The past 20 years tell us that hack89 Dec 2011 #20
Yes, steady decrease in violent crime because of tougher enforcement, aging population, better Hoyt Dec 2011 #22
I don't talk to people that feel compelled to insult me instead of debating facts. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #23
I don't see a single insult. ellisonz Dec 2011 #25
Coming from someone who supports the Patriot Act - well my irony meter just blew up. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #28
Do I need to post the list of Senate Democrats voting for the extension? n/t ellisonz Dec 2011 #82
Let's start with warrantless wiretapping - for or against? nt hack89 Dec 2011 #90
Ok. ellisonz Dec 2011 #93
So you trust the government and police to not abuse this power? hack89 Dec 2011 #94
I think present laws are adequate hack89 Dec 2011 #95
They are actually FBI and DOJ talking points. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #30
crime is down as gang membership increases. DrDan Dec 2011 #37
I have never said that more guns lead to lower crime hack89 Dec 2011 #38
so then gang membership also does not create more crime . . . correct? DrDan Dec 2011 #39
Incarceration rates for gang members are also up hack89 Dec 2011 #40
you didn't address my earlier comparison DrDan Dec 2011 #41
No - more violent gang members in jail = less violent crime. hack89 Dec 2011 #42
And if we had fewer guns, the violent crime rate might be even less. Hoyt Dec 2011 #46
But since we are on the right track and every year you are safer hack89 Dec 2011 #47
"simplistic" is eactly the word I use for your false conclusion re more guns DrDan Dec 2011 #50
That's the point - there is no correlation between guns and crime. hack89 Dec 2011 #51
and exactly how do you know that more guns did not produce more crime DrDan Dec 2011 #53
Didn't I just say that there is no correlation - we can't say that? hack89 Dec 2011 #55
you are the one making the statement that more guns do not lead to more crime. The burden of proof DrDan Dec 2011 #58
I said the facts show no increase in crime despite an increase in guns hack89 Dec 2011 #61
that is correct - and is my conclusion also DrDan Dec 2011 #64
So there are not more guns? Or is there really more crime? hack89 Dec 2011 #65
but they cannot be linked DrDan Dec 2011 #67
So there is no real justification for more stringent gun laws to further reduce crime hack89 Dec 2011 #69
"99.99 % of gun owners will never commit violent crime" boppers Dec 2011 #81
So give a me a more reasonable one. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #87
Was yours just made up? boppers Dec 2011 #96
Ok - I accept 99 percent. hack89 Dec 2011 #98
That's not really exclusively true... ellisonz Dec 2011 #83
Post hoc ergo prompter hoc. LanternWaste Dec 2011 #76
Read back over the thread and note how many times I say there is no correlation hack89 Dec 2011 #79
You're perfectly safe till you're shot by someone else Missy Vixen Dec 2011 #32
But the trend is still downwards so the present laws are working hack89 Dec 2011 #34
That is demonstrably not true slackmaster Dec 2011 #72
No, thanks Missy Vixen Dec 2011 #73
Your hyperbole does not serve well for whatever point you are trying to make here slackmaster Dec 2011 #74
Those who carry a firearm for self defense often have the attitude that ... spin Dec 2011 #124
Yeah, if California only had strict gun laws... Dr_Scholl Dec 2011 #4
The answer is less guns, period. ellisonz Dec 2011 #7
Let's assume that you are correct, how do you suggest we reduce the number of guns... spin Dec 2011 #31
New limits on the number of guns one may acquire... ellisonz Dec 2011 #33
Do you support increased taxes on beer drinkers hack89 Dec 2011 #35
Since I enjoy shooting handguns, a limit of one is totally unacceptable... spin Dec 2011 #62
I was in a hurry and mispoke. ellisonz Dec 2011 #102
I am not denying that there is a problem with gun violence in our nation... spin Dec 2011 #108
Here's the real issue. ellisonz Dec 2011 #111
I have posted the idea of requiring an NICS background check for all private sales ... spin Dec 2011 #112
Legislation such as these in question always involve trade-offs. ellisonz Dec 2011 #113
Thanks for the interesting reply... spin Dec 2011 #123
"distrust of all government which developed from our Revolutionary War " ellisonz Dec 2011 #125
I disagree of course. The anti-Federalists didn't lose the debate... spin Dec 2011 #126
"outlawing slavery was politically impossible." ellisonz Dec 2011 #129
You may be right... spin Dec 2011 #130
No guns for poor people slackmaster Dec 2011 #75
Wrong. ellisonz Dec 2011 #84
The cops in my small town in Florida are the "gun nutz"... spin Dec 2011 #106
Oh, small town's in Florida... ellisonz Dec 2011 #107
self delete, replied to wrong post. (n/t) spin Dec 2011 #109
While we have had gang related shootings here... spin Dec 2011 #110
Nice cartoon. Atypical Liberal Dec 2011 #132
How would poor people be able to afford guns? Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #134
The issue is freedom of choice, not your assessment of "need." slackmaster Dec 2011 #136
Freedom of choice for those who can afford them, you mean, right? Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #137
ellisonz is the one who wants to make a gun "a privileged object" slackmaster Dec 2011 #147
Your using this tragety to attack American's rights is disgusting. Odin2005 Dec 2011 #26
your insult aside, obviously a citizen's right to safety is secondary to you when it comes to 2A DrDan Dec 2011 #36
You have no Constitutional right to be safe. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #43
I have an inalienable right to safety - as does everyone else DrDan Dec 2011 #44
Show me the words in the Constitution. hack89 Dec 2011 #45
"self-evident" . . . guess our founding fathers never anticipated the pro-gun agenda of today DrDan Dec 2011 #48
So there must be case law - surely this issue has been raised in court before? nt hack89 Dec 2011 #49
you can't yell fire in a crowded theatre - 1A rights suspended because of safety DrDan Dec 2011 #52
And that was determined through actual court decisions. hack89 Dec 2011 #54
USSC decision DrDan Dec 2011 #56
I know that - show me a similiar case for the right to be safe. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #57
I see - USSC decision is not enough - gotcha DrDan Dec 2011 #59
That decision says nothing about the right to be safe - it was a free speech issue. hack89 Dec 2011 #60
it shows exactly that - that the USSC recognizes the right to safety - even if other constitutional DrDan Dec 2011 #63
That's a hell of a reach. hack89 Dec 2011 #66
a "hell of a reach"?????? Holmes own words . . . . DrDan Dec 2011 #68
And yet that interpretation has never been used in any other case. hack89 Dec 2011 #70
I cannot address that - I just see that the USSC recognizes one's right to safety DrDan Dec 2011 #71
No - you think they recognize the right to safety. hack89 Dec 2011 #80
Holmes own words indicate a recognition of that right . . . and to preserve it constitutional rights DrDan Dec 2011 #97
btw, meant to ask you this (got too wrapped up in Christmas shopping, I guess) DrDan Dec 2011 #99
Do you think that driving is a civil right? We seem to have plenty of traffic laws. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #100
there are times rights must be restricted - like an 8-year old should not be a gun owner with the DrDan Dec 2011 #101
Who is arguing that there should be is an unrestricted right to own guns? hack89 Dec 2011 #103
you just asked about driving - and you commented on laws around driving. DrDan Dec 2011 #104
Driving is a not a constitutional right hack89 Dec 2011 #105
it is a fundamental right of all citizens - that has been affirmed by cort decisions DrDan Dec 2011 #114
OK - start listing those cases. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #115
plenty of references available - here is one DrDan Dec 2011 #116
I would love to see guns regulated like driving hack89 Dec 2011 #117
more regulation is necessary imo DrDan Dec 2011 #118
Why? hack89 Dec 2011 #119
because citizens have a right to be safe - and that includes protection from the dangers of guns DrDan Dec 2011 #120
You need to reread the Constitution... ellisonz Dec 2011 #85
So? Show me the case law that interprets that to mean a right to be safe? hack89 Dec 2011 #86
This really isn't that hard... ellisonz Dec 2011 #88
So you can't find a single ruling explicatly stating a right to safety? hack89 Dec 2011 #89
Oh my... ellisonz Dec 2011 #91
So start listing specific cases. hack89 Dec 2011 #92
Isn't that interesting? Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #138
Call it what you want - doesn't change that basic fact. hack89 Dec 2011 #140
I call it what it as I see it. Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #144
So lets call it a civil liberty hack89 Dec 2011 #146
No, let's call it what it really is. Stupidity. Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #148
So get your friends together and try to change the Constitution hack89 Dec 2011 #149
First of all, there are no brick walls in my world. Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #151
Well, have a good life then. tn hack89 Dec 2011 #152
I imagine we perceive those things most important to us as the fulcrum of any argument. LanternWaste Dec 2011 #78
Edison office shooting victims, killer identified ellisonz Dec 2011 #8
Gunman in Edison shooting had been reprimanded by boss, source says ellisonz Dec 2011 #9
Recording of SoCal Edison Shooting 9-1-1 Call Released ellisonz Dec 2011 #14
Another gun victimized by a useless human. ileus Dec 2011 #77
hmmm LadyInAZ Dec 2011 #121
Indeed. LAGC Dec 2011 #122
Is this the society we've evolved into? Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #150
yep, very possible Enrique Dec 2011 #131
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