Editorials & Other Articles

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)

109. Not very many known aspects of the funding mechanism...

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 01:41 PM

Aug 2018

Which is why there are so many "extrapolations."

Blahous and others have done the work that Sanders has not - because the bill as written doesn't flesh out the details adequately.

This allows Sanders to make all kinds of claims to people concerning what his bill will do for everyone, because he knows it won't be reality for the foreseeable future.

When policy experts/groups do analyze what is indeed written - including those who are non-partisan - they also say that the costs are underestimated, and the timeframe on implementation too fast, and will cause more disruption to the health care delivery system than he states.

Since his brand and popularity are tied up with M4A, he is motivated to fight any analysis that doesn't support his promises, and in this case, even to find support where it clearly states that it doesn't support his claims.

The donor email that he sent made it a centerpiece of his ask. He is certainly not going to admit that he may have been wrong, even if admitting a mistake is something he would do.

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The Fact-Checkers Are Clueless [View all] Uncle Joe Aug 2018 OP

No, they're not. And facts matter. Hortensis Aug 2018 #1

The OP cites explicit examples Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #3

Yes, he's "speaking about the American Peoples' savings" but giving precious little detail about.... George II Aug 2018 #10

Using BERNIE'S PLAN, even the Mercatus report reflected two trillion dollars in savings, Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #13

Has this plan been adopted in Vermont yet? Gothmog Aug 2018 #17

Forest and the trees. Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #25

Again if sanders has a magical plan then get it adopted in Vermont Gothmog Aug 2018 #29

Bernie is one of Vermont's U.S. Senators not the Governor of that fine state. Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #39

Actually, his refusal to talk about Green Mountain Care's failure, and possible lessons learned ehrnst Aug 2018 #31

Vermont is not an island in the ocean and has a small population to boot, it's not even a Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #48

Gothmog has a good point. The desire to stick to Hortensis Aug 2018 #23

When Bernie was citing two trillion dollars in savings for the American People listed in the Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #36

Trump and Sanders BOTH promised BETTER healthcare Hortensis Aug 2018 #41

"National" healthcare? Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #46

Sanders needs to break that BOTH by producing a plan Hortensis Aug 2018 #50

It's not a static world Hortensis what can't be achieved today can very well be done Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #51

From the Mercatus report: ehrnst Aug 2018 #34

Bernie's PLAN isn't a law yet dansolo Aug 2018 #81

It's a bill and Blahous of the Koch funded Mercatus Center based his findings Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #82

that expenditure cut is based on a huge assumption: JHan Aug 2018 #35

++++++ brer cat Aug 2018 #77

I trust CNN and the other fact checkers Gothmog Aug 2018 #2

I trust the facts Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #5

So do I, which is why I trust Tapper Gothmog Aug 2018 #15

Did you listen to your own video Tapper either begins misleading or lies at about Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #19

I both listened to it and I actually understood it Gothmog Aug 2018 #20

Do you believe "government" and the "American People" are the same thing in regards to this issue? Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #22

LOL-so when will we hear about Vermont adopting this plan? Gothmog Aug 2018 #24

Who pays for the 20% of medical bills that Medicare doesn't cover? It only covers 80% brush Aug 2018 #42

Who pays for the bills that the uninsured leave at the emergency room doorstep? Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #44

I'm asking a serious question. If you don't know if Medicare for all pays for it just say so. brush Aug 2018 #45

My questions were quite serious, I suspect you know who pays for it. Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #47

I don't know. It's a simple question. People with Medicare have to pay the 20%. brush Aug 2018 #55

I understand there is a detailed plan, but have yet to see it ehrnst Aug 2018 #63

I just posted the relevant paragraph, the plan does. Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #68

maybe not Kurt V. Aug 2018 #27

Got anything on factcheck.org? ehrnst Aug 2018 #38

Except when they dispute something that Sanders says. (nt) ehrnst Aug 2018 #32

so now anyone who disagrees with Sanders is wrong.. JHan Aug 2018 #4

Do you have any rebuttals to the actual OP's points of contention? Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #6

I did. JHan Aug 2018 #11

"mainstream fact checkers are wrong" ehrnst Aug 2018 #33

exactly. JHan Aug 2018 #37

It is almost as if someone WANTS universal to fail, ultimately. Or that it should be Eliot Rosewater Aug 2018 #28

I was under the assumption that Sanders' bill was conceptual in nature with very few.... George II Aug 2018 #7

It's more than conceptual if you want more specifics Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #12

The specifics have been analyzed by independent, non-partisan think tanks. ehrnst Aug 2018 #30

The author makes assumptions on what the medical community will or won't do and from whence does he Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #40

Here's a video of Tapper changing Bernie and Alexandria's claim but don't believe your own eyes Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #8

Here is what Ricardo Alonzo-Zaldivar from AP has to say about the Mercatus Center paper: George II Aug 2018 #18

... NurseJackie Aug 2018 #9

... Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #14

Yes, Jacobin, that shining beacon of objective political analysis.. ehrnst Aug 2018 #16

Gothmog's video on post # 15 supports at least one of Jacobin's contentions Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #21

Splitting hairs on one phrase. ehrnst Aug 2018 #26

Bernie said "that wasn't what the study intended to do but it was in the study" Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #43

Not really Gothmog Aug 2018 #76

Who is this person? Gothmog Aug 2018 #49

The writer for Jacobin appears to lack an editor. lapucelle Aug 2018 #53

Jacobin? Again? lapucelle Aug 2018 #52

Politifact is wrong what Bernie said is true Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #54

In only one of two possible, equally likely scenarios. lapucelle Aug 2018 #56

I'll believe factcheck.org and/or Politifact over any politician when they disagree. ehrnst Aug 2018 #57

Are they not human as well? Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #59

Is Tapper working for factcheck.org and Politifact now? ehrnst Aug 2018 #61

It was half true because it was only one of two possible scenarios. lapucelle Aug 2018 #58

But according to Jacobin, Politifact is in cahoots with Mercatus to get Bernie! ehrnst Aug 2018 #74

Not in the real world Gothmog Aug 2018 #75

Now that's a statement I would expect to see from a Trump supporter. ehrnst Aug 2018 #60

Which statement? Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #62

The title of your OP. (nt) ehrnst Aug 2018 #64

And the substance of the article refers to the "fact checkers' and backs up it's assertions. Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #65

I have yet to see factcheck.org or Politifact retract. ehrnst Aug 2018 #66

Well the OP is primarily about Tapper but there were other segments Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #67

"media doing the same knee jerk or premeditated misleading." ehrnst Aug 2018 #69

This isn't a tweet! The Medicare for All Bill, Mercatus report, Bernie's truthful response, Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #70

Fact checking is fact checking, and you posted an article that accuses ehrnst Aug 2018 #71

Fact checking IS fact checking, that's the point, so we're checking the facts of the fact checkers Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #72

When you post conspiracy theory worthy, unsubstantiated claims about the free press ehrnst Aug 2018 #73

The fact checkers based their assumptions on a faulty premise Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #78

Because Jacobin says so? ehrnst Aug 2018 #115

I believe you and I have used many of the same posts over the course of our debates Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #117

I think that your citing of that Jacobin article says much about ehrnst Aug 2018 #118

I've cited Sach's analysis on CNN as well but you have yet to respond to his article Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #120

Your very OP concerns the Mercatus study, and the fact checking of Bernie's claims about it. ehrnst Aug 2018 #121

I can just re post this because the same answer applies Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #123

..... ehrnst Aug 2018 #124

What are the "self corrected fact checks" lapucelle Aug 2018 #79

Well there is Kessler at the Washington Post Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #80

Sanders clearly didn't contact Blahous before making his statement on the study. ehrnst Aug 2018 #83

I have a feeling that talking points were rolled out based on a superficial reading lapucelle Aug 2018 #86

I know that it was featured in an email campaign for donations. ehrnst Aug 2018 #91

That's Blahous' opinion NOT based on the requirements of the BILL it's just an Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #94

From Blahous: ehrnst Aug 2018 #105

Still no answer to Jeffrey Sachs' criticism of Blahous' study. Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #111

Still no answer to how the author of the study is not credible enough to understand ehrnst Aug 2018 #113

Kessler still gives BS's claim 3 Pinnochios. lapucelle Aug 2018 #84

Stop it with the FACTS, will you?? ehrnst Aug 2018 #85

... lapucelle Aug 2018 #87

Why use the word "cherry picked" when citing the results of study of the actual BILL. Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #88

"So why should Bernie or anyone else cite that as it's not based on reality? " ehrnst Aug 2018 #89

A common sense example of what BS did in his big announcement lapucelle Aug 2018 #93

Bingo. (nt) ehrnst Aug 2018 #95

More like this Blahous example of his report. Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #97

No, that's really stretching it. ehrnst Aug 2018 #102

There were two aspects of this report one pertaining to the ACTUAL bill which reflects savings of Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #96

"based on an alternate reality not based on the bill" ehrnst Aug 2018 #103

There are KNOWN aspects of the bill to which Blahous chose to ignore in his second scenario Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #108

Not very many known aspects of the funding mechanism... ehrnst Aug 2018 #109

Provider payment rates in Sanders's plan are not "assumptions" Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #112

This does not address the fact that Sanders did not accurately represent ehrnst Aug 2018 #114

Because only one of two possibilities was acknowleged. lapucelle Aug 2018 #90

As the author said, Sanders chose a number presented as "unlikely" according to the study. ehrnst Aug 2018 #92

Bernie chose the number from the grading of his actual bill and what about this? Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #99

So you don't think that he understood the data in his study? ehrnst Aug 2018 #100

I just presented evidence from economist Jeffrey Sachs stating of at least three major dynamics not Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #106

And I presented to you Blahous' statement on the conclusions that were not supported by his study. ehrnst Aug 2018 #110

Blahous' study is not out of line with some mainstream economists Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #116

The main issue you have is that he did an analysis "based on the actual bill" ehrnst Aug 2018 #119

Bernie was pointing to "An Inconvenient Truth" WITHIN the study because he believed Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #122

The only possibility based in the real world was the analysis of the actual BILL not Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #98

So he's not "competent enough" to come up with a scenario that proves Bernie's numbers... ehrnst Aug 2018 #101

Because the BS bill has no funding provisions lapucelle Aug 2018 #104

Indeed. Bernie's own projections are not as fleshed out, and he is not a policy analyst. ehrnst Aug 2018 #107

The study was purely binary, Bernie has wisely proposed a whole range of funding options and Uncle Joe Aug 2018 #126

Kick ck4829 Aug 2018 #125