Chris Hedges on Pornography, discussing Empire of Illusion on BookTV

[DutchLiberal]

37. But you can't back up that claim.

I think your claim that "a lot" (is that "most" or just "a lot", what order of magnitude are we talking about here?) of girls are being forced/raped is more an expression of your own perception on porn than it is an actual, factual reflection of what goes on in the porn business. I think you were already always against pornography and that view has informed your claims about "a lot" of girls being "raped". You have found additional, anecdotal evidence to back up that perception and, in your mind, you have 'translated' that to the business as a whole. That's my take on it. Of course you are entitled to your own opinion on porn and no doubt you will say I (and other men) 'ignore' problems in the business because that fits my (our) agenda (= we want to be able to watch porn). I just don't think it's factually true what you're saying. I'm not saying abuse doesn't happen sometimes and I would never ignore or downplay it, as a liberal. But, also as a liberal, I'm not willing to vilify and demonise an entire industry because of a handful of regrettable exceptions. That would be throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Small thing I wanted to add, about you saying some men get off seeing women being hurt. First, like I said to seabeyond, my estimation is that the 'violent porn' is a minority niche 'genre' in the overall offering of porn. Second, I think it's first and foremost about the illusion of having power over and dominating a woman; not so much the woman in pain. It's like couples who are into S&M. That, too, is not about hurting one another, but exercising power and control over one another. Like you said, it's only make-belief to begin with, as it's all acted out, so I don't see why it should be a problem. I've known guys (online and offline) who were into that kind of porn, but who were the most gentle and respectful men you could imagine. They were all in steady long-term relationships and they treated their girlfriends well. So to say that seeing that kind of porn makes men violent/disrespectful against women is demonstrably untrue. Furthermore, there never has been any convincing evidence on that. At most, shady correlations could be found with creative interpreting of data.

It's not something most men would REALLY like to do to women; they would never do so in real life. And since I have no desire to have a thought police, I don't see why we should make a problem out of this. More important, and this may come as a shock to you, the 'rape fantasy' is not only common among men, but also among women. Important to note first, is that I personally know, in real life, women close to me who have been raped. So I would in no way, ever make light of it. Ever. I hope you understand that. But I've visited a forum for years, a Dutch forum designed for high school students (though lots of members stick around after leaving high school), on which all sort of topics could be discussed in sub-fora, including sexuality. In the sexuality forum, the topic of rape fantasy has come up more than a few times in the years I was there. A lot (really, a lot) of female members (longtime, trustworthy members) have admitted in those kinds of threads to having such fantasies. (Men, too, by the way.) Not that they ever REALLY wanted that to happen to them, OF COURSE. Yet it was still a fantasy of theirs and that comes back to what I said before, about dominating someone or being dominated by someone. Apparently, that's a staple of human sexuality. I have read similar things from women in magazines targeted at high school students (here in The Netherlands, sexual topics are common things to find in teenagers magazines), by way of mailed-in questions. And that was in the times before things like YouPorn came along, when nobody could see porn on the web because you had to PAY for it.

These women (and men) weren't 'indoctrinated' or 'programmed' by 'The Patriarchy' to have such thoughts or fantasies. They just had them. Like lots and lots and lots of others DON'T have them. Yet you never hear any explanation from feminists that, if 'The Patriarchy' is really THAT powerful and dominating, then why is it that so many women do NOT have such thoughts? Just some food for thought.