Socialist Progressives

LooseWilly

(4,477 posts)

50. I think you've voiced something that I've always thought was an essential point.

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:56 AM

Jul 2012

The external pressures are exactly why I think the USSR adopted the authoritarian measures it did adopt... though I'm not convinced the measures were as authoritarian as the Hoover Institute would have us believe.

Nevertheless, the need to adopt what measures were adopted is then used as an argument against what socialism, or communism, can accomplish. Fending off the Nazis, who overran all of Western Europe and might've overrun the UK too had they not decided to try their luck against the USSR first, is generally dismissed as an achievement of socialism. The fact that the most backward country of Europe managed such a miraculous productivity build-up in so short of a time is dismissed. The fact that such development would've been impossible by means of a capitalist system is dismissed.

So much is dismissed.

And now you are also dismissing what Greek workers might be capable of.

Just saying...

When I'm working for insignificant wages, I don't work so hard. No one else works that hard either. If we thought we had a stake in the product of that work... might we work harder?... What do you think?

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Libertarian Communism - your thoughts? [View all] Taverner Jul 2012 OP

sounds boring BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #1

So does eight years of peace and prosperity Taverner Jul 2012 #2

Just to be clear those names do define different ideologies. white_wolf Jul 2012 #3

That was early on. After Trotsky went after the Anarchists, and Stalin took power Taverner Jul 2012 #4

there were a lot of fine people that supported the purges BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #30

Well if Dorothy Parker was pro-purges, I'm pro-purges. LooseWilly Jul 2012 #37

How do you keep capitalist states from eating your lunch without central control? Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #5

Well the failures of the anarchists in Spain weren't due to lack of central control. white_wolf Jul 2012 #6

I was just speaking generally. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #7

It also didn't help that Stalin was purging any non-Bolshiveks from the Spanish Republic Taverner Jul 2012 #8

n/m BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #9

I would not consider that a balanced view since it was written... joshcryer Jul 2012 #19

The Spanish Anarchists were outnumbered and weakened by the Popular Front. joshcryer Jul 2012 #17

BTW, the anarchist spirit still exists in Spain: joshcryer Jul 2012 #20

If anarchists organize, are they still anarchists? LooseWilly Jul 2012 #38

Your argument of comparing Anarchism to Somali is really poor. white_wolf Jul 2012 #47

Anarchists never actually took power in Spain. LooseWilly Jul 2012 #55

Anarchist Catalonia disagrees with you. As does Orwell. joshcryer Jul 2012 #72

Yup, that remains the problem. The Paris Commune lasted all of 2 months or so. nt TBF Jul 2012 #10

I had a picture in my mind of Kissinger getting the now pissed off MIC to rally around him Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #11

Capitalism itself hinges on central control. Without it they are made irrelevant. joshcryer Jul 2012 #15

isnt anarchism basically socialism w/ the marxism excised? BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #21

Nah, most anarchists agree with 95% of Marxism. joshcryer Jul 2012 #32

The "central power structure" (i.e. the state), under Marxism, is just a word for "the workers"... LooseWilly Jul 2012 #39

Workers themselves do not constitute a "state." joshcryer Jul 2012 #42

The workers themselves DO constitute a "state" if they take over the "machinery" of a state and LooseWilly Jul 2012 #49

The "machinery of a state" are the police and property systems they've implemented. joshcryer Jul 2012 #69

I understand the theory (though don't agree) Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #23

The only way I can see it happening is if the anarchist federation... joshcryer Jul 2012 #33

The what what? The "anarchist federation"?? Is that like the "socialist business league"?? LooseWilly Jul 2012 #40

Mars or something. joshcryer Jul 2012 #41

"Shit ain't happening with significant influence from capitalists and totalitarians"? Really? LooseWilly Jul 2012 #46

Well obviously you can't expect to ignore the capitalists. white_wolf Jul 2012 #48

I think you've voiced something that I've always thought was an essential point. LooseWilly Jul 2012 #50

The USSR accomplished a great deal. I've made that point in GD on this site several times. white_wolf Jul 2012 #51

I guess I'm enough of a fan of Lenin to think that a socialist Greece can stand alone. LooseWilly Jul 2012 #56

You do realize the mere fact that I disagree with his theories doesn't make him an asshole,right? white_wolf Jul 2012 #59

Everyone that I disagree with is an asshole... it's just a rhetorical flourish, no need to blush... LooseWilly Jul 2012 #65

Gorbachev did not cede to the west, he ceded to the Eastern Bloc. joshcryer Jul 2012 #70

Your post touches on the heart of this whole debate. white_wolf Jul 2012 #73

I'm tired of dealing with a highly antagonistic person like yourself. joshcryer Jul 2012 #68

About your mod question: white_wolf Jul 2012 #74

I'd vote for locking the thread. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #75

Yeah I think that's a good call. I'll second your vote for locking it. white_wolf Jul 2012 #76

Post #40 is where the antagonism started. joshcryer Jul 2012 #79

Central control in the hands of a Vanguard isn't the only means of control. white_wolf Jul 2012 #27

Well, as a worker, I've had experience with councils and committees. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #29

firmly in the hands of the workers IS THE THEORY... LooseWilly Jul 2012 #43

Here is my biggest problem with Marxism... white_wolf Jul 2012 #12

And one of the reasons I am for a decentralized system Taverner Jul 2012 #13

Same. In a centralized system corruption can be at the top, and you can't get rid of it. joshcryer Jul 2012 #18

This message was self-deleted by its author BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #14

It could, in theory, if power didn't corrupt. joshcryer Jul 2012 #16

did you ever look up the guy who came up w/ that saying? BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #26

So what? Heinlein has the worst politics ever... joshcryer Jul 2012 #31

what about the soviet union (RIP) BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #22

Or Somalia. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #24

its seem to me that BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #25

Yeah, that's how I see it too. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #28

Ethio-Somali War joshcryer Jul 2012 #34

I didn't mean to imply that the Soviets supported Somalia at that time, sorry about that. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #35

I know what you're saying. I remember a good source for that. joshcryer Jul 2012 #36

If power is "centralized" in the hands of the workers, then the state, as an apparatus of oppress- LooseWilly Jul 2012 #44

Fair point. Perhaps I should have rephrasied my subject title to say something like: white_wolf Jul 2012 #45

What part of Leninism has you hung up? LooseWilly Jul 2012 #52

Your views on Trotskyism are rather inaccurate. white_wolf Jul 2012 #54

I was hoping to have you enlighten me on Trotskyism... but alas you present merely platitudes... LooseWilly Jul 2012 #58

You know if you actually want to know what Trotsky's views were... white_wolf Jul 2012 #60

Unfortunately I'm a prole myself.. and I have to be at work in 4 1/2 hours... LooseWilly Jul 2012 #67

It seems like maybe oppression in the USSR was not so much against limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #57

+100. I don't know why no one said any of that before. white_wolf Jul 2012 #61

probably Noam Chomsky said that limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #63

I am perplexed. Do you feel like you aren't subject to "arbitrary unfair decisions by bureaucrats.." LooseWilly Jul 2012 #62

oppression, limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #64

I can't say that USSR Communism was oppression with any certainty, no. LooseWilly Jul 2012 #66

Rosa Luexmburg joshcryer Jul 2012 #71

Cool thanks. limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #83

A contradiction in terms. n/t pnwmom Jul 2012 #53

Good for you! earthside Jul 2012 #77

Under this plan, would everyone receive the same ammount zzaapp Jul 2012 #78

Depends. The OP has 3 plans. joshcryer Jul 2012 #80

Thanks for the clarifications. Taverner Jul 2012 #81

Thanks Josh, I'm a little new to this sort of thinking zzaapp Jul 2012 #82

Please feel free to start a new OP on this. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #84