Socialist Progressives

LooseWilly

(4,477 posts)

58. I was hoping to have you enlighten me on Trotskyism... but alas you present merely platitudes...

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:08 AM

Jul 2012

I was not aware that Trotskyite was a pejorative term, actually... though I must admit that it has been one for me for some time. I suppose I'll use Trotskyist instead, to be polite... though that will also be a pejorative coming out of my "mouth".

Near as I can tell, Trotsky had strange views on Marxism... and viewed the Kulaks as "ok", despite the fact that they were looking to exploit the ex-serfs by means of their control of local capital and the means of grinding grain before bringing it to market. He only felt that industrial capitalists were a problem (?)

I'm not even sure if that's exactly right. I've been to the office where he was executed, but I'm not exactly sure what he espoused (aside from what I can deduce by the fact that he was opposed to Stalin), and Trotskyist thinkers and groups tend to be even less clear in expounding their message.

I wonder why that is.

Stalin was perfectly clear, and is still revered as a hero by many in Russia. Trotsky has a bullet riddled museum in Mexico City.

And you have evolved from the opacity of Trotskyism to... "Luxemburgian anti-Leninism"? (Despite the realization that the USSR was beset by invaders until the end of WWII...)

You'll forgive me if I'm not convinced?

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Libertarian Communism - your thoughts? [View all] Taverner Jul 2012 OP

sounds boring BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #1

So does eight years of peace and prosperity Taverner Jul 2012 #2

Just to be clear those names do define different ideologies. white_wolf Jul 2012 #3

That was early on. After Trotsky went after the Anarchists, and Stalin took power Taverner Jul 2012 #4

there were a lot of fine people that supported the purges BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #30

Well if Dorothy Parker was pro-purges, I'm pro-purges. LooseWilly Jul 2012 #37

How do you keep capitalist states from eating your lunch without central control? Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #5

Well the failures of the anarchists in Spain weren't due to lack of central control. white_wolf Jul 2012 #6

I was just speaking generally. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #7

It also didn't help that Stalin was purging any non-Bolshiveks from the Spanish Republic Taverner Jul 2012 #8

n/m BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #9

I would not consider that a balanced view since it was written... joshcryer Jul 2012 #19

The Spanish Anarchists were outnumbered and weakened by the Popular Front. joshcryer Jul 2012 #17

BTW, the anarchist spirit still exists in Spain: joshcryer Jul 2012 #20

If anarchists organize, are they still anarchists? LooseWilly Jul 2012 #38

Your argument of comparing Anarchism to Somali is really poor. white_wolf Jul 2012 #47

Anarchists never actually took power in Spain. LooseWilly Jul 2012 #55

Anarchist Catalonia disagrees with you. As does Orwell. joshcryer Jul 2012 #72

Yup, that remains the problem. The Paris Commune lasted all of 2 months or so. nt TBF Jul 2012 #10

I had a picture in my mind of Kissinger getting the now pissed off MIC to rally around him Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #11

Capitalism itself hinges on central control. Without it they are made irrelevant. joshcryer Jul 2012 #15

isnt anarchism basically socialism w/ the marxism excised? BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #21

Nah, most anarchists agree with 95% of Marxism. joshcryer Jul 2012 #32

The "central power structure" (i.e. the state), under Marxism, is just a word for "the workers"... LooseWilly Jul 2012 #39

Workers themselves do not constitute a "state." joshcryer Jul 2012 #42

The workers themselves DO constitute a "state" if they take over the "machinery" of a state and LooseWilly Jul 2012 #49

The "machinery of a state" are the police and property systems they've implemented. joshcryer Jul 2012 #69

I understand the theory (though don't agree) Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #23

The only way I can see it happening is if the anarchist federation... joshcryer Jul 2012 #33

The what what? The "anarchist federation"?? Is that like the "socialist business league"?? LooseWilly Jul 2012 #40

Mars or something. joshcryer Jul 2012 #41

"Shit ain't happening with significant influence from capitalists and totalitarians"? Really? LooseWilly Jul 2012 #46

Well obviously you can't expect to ignore the capitalists. white_wolf Jul 2012 #48

I think you've voiced something that I've always thought was an essential point. LooseWilly Jul 2012 #50

The USSR accomplished a great deal. I've made that point in GD on this site several times. white_wolf Jul 2012 #51

I guess I'm enough of a fan of Lenin to think that a socialist Greece can stand alone. LooseWilly Jul 2012 #56

You do realize the mere fact that I disagree with his theories doesn't make him an asshole,right? white_wolf Jul 2012 #59

Everyone that I disagree with is an asshole... it's just a rhetorical flourish, no need to blush... LooseWilly Jul 2012 #65

Gorbachev did not cede to the west, he ceded to the Eastern Bloc. joshcryer Jul 2012 #70

Your post touches on the heart of this whole debate. white_wolf Jul 2012 #73

I'm tired of dealing with a highly antagonistic person like yourself. joshcryer Jul 2012 #68

About your mod question: white_wolf Jul 2012 #74

I'd vote for locking the thread. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #75

Yeah I think that's a good call. I'll second your vote for locking it. white_wolf Jul 2012 #76

Post #40 is where the antagonism started. joshcryer Jul 2012 #79

Central control in the hands of a Vanguard isn't the only means of control. white_wolf Jul 2012 #27

Well, as a worker, I've had experience with councils and committees. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #29

firmly in the hands of the workers IS THE THEORY... LooseWilly Jul 2012 #43

Here is my biggest problem with Marxism... white_wolf Jul 2012 #12

And one of the reasons I am for a decentralized system Taverner Jul 2012 #13

Same. In a centralized system corruption can be at the top, and you can't get rid of it. joshcryer Jul 2012 #18

This message was self-deleted by its author BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #14

It could, in theory, if power didn't corrupt. joshcryer Jul 2012 #16

did you ever look up the guy who came up w/ that saying? BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #26

So what? Heinlein has the worst politics ever... joshcryer Jul 2012 #31

what about the soviet union (RIP) BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #22

Or Somalia. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #24

its seem to me that BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #25

Yeah, that's how I see it too. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #28

Ethio-Somali War joshcryer Jul 2012 #34

I didn't mean to imply that the Soviets supported Somalia at that time, sorry about that. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #35

I know what you're saying. I remember a good source for that. joshcryer Jul 2012 #36

If power is "centralized" in the hands of the workers, then the state, as an apparatus of oppress- LooseWilly Jul 2012 #44

Fair point. Perhaps I should have rephrasied my subject title to say something like: white_wolf Jul 2012 #45

What part of Leninism has you hung up? LooseWilly Jul 2012 #52

Your views on Trotskyism are rather inaccurate. white_wolf Jul 2012 #54

I was hoping to have you enlighten me on Trotskyism... but alas you present merely platitudes... LooseWilly Jul 2012 #58

You know if you actually want to know what Trotsky's views were... white_wolf Jul 2012 #60

Unfortunately I'm a prole myself.. and I have to be at work in 4 1/2 hours... LooseWilly Jul 2012 #67

It seems like maybe oppression in the USSR was not so much against limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #57

+100. I don't know why no one said any of that before. white_wolf Jul 2012 #61

probably Noam Chomsky said that limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #63

I am perplexed. Do you feel like you aren't subject to "arbitrary unfair decisions by bureaucrats.." LooseWilly Jul 2012 #62

oppression, limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #64

I can't say that USSR Communism was oppression with any certainty, no. LooseWilly Jul 2012 #66

Rosa Luexmburg joshcryer Jul 2012 #71

Cool thanks. limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #83

A contradiction in terms. n/t pnwmom Jul 2012 #53

Good for you! earthside Jul 2012 #77

Under this plan, would everyone receive the same ammount zzaapp Jul 2012 #78

Depends. The OP has 3 plans. joshcryer Jul 2012 #80

Thanks for the clarifications. Taverner Jul 2012 #81

Thanks Josh, I'm a little new to this sort of thinking zzaapp Jul 2012 #82

Please feel free to start a new OP on this. Starry Messenger Jul 2012 #84