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socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
12. There's a lot of history behind ALL of these reform/revolution arguments....
Sun Aug 4, 2013, 09:43 AM
Aug 2013

IOW, this is NOT a new argument. My Workers' Power group holds monthly "extra" meetings on educational topics, in addition to regular discussion on picked topics of socialist historic and present day interest during our regular meetings. One thing I'm always struck by is how an argument from a century ago has SO much relevance to today's struggles. IMO, the reason(s) for the relevance is that capitalism hasn't changed, consequently, neither has the overall strategy for battling it. Now tactics are different. They of necessity change, but the strategies? Not so much.

It's also easy to relate to the reform arguments though, ESPECIALLY when you only have what your eyes see during the span of a single lifetime. When I was a kid in the 50s/60s it was the heyday of "regulated" capitalism and it seemed like Marx and Engels WERE wrong, at least on some points. But as I said in the previous post, that era was just a mirage.

One point to make is that capitalism IS the established system, so it doesn't have to rely on sudden changes. it can take the long perspective if it so chooses. And this is the tack it took after the New Deal reforms of the 30s. It was also the tack that it HAD to take because of the revolutionary fervor of the working class at that time. It's not a stretch to say that FDR saved capitalism from itself. If the PTBs had tried to immediately (within a decade or so) have tried to repeal the New Deal, they would have faced the revolution they delayed with the enactment OF the New Deal.

As to building a movement, there's nothing in Trotskyist thought that says you can't make a common cause with reformists on individual ISSUES or even a whole group of issues. The actual point of a United Front is twofold in strategy. To attempt to make gains for the workers by putting yourself in the vanguard (there's that word again) of the day-to-day struggles, but it's also to show the bankruptcy OF these incremental reforms as a way out of the problems of the working class under capitalism. That's why it's a basic tenet of a UF to keep your own freedom to agitate, propagandize, and yes, even criticize your front partners. Because history teaches that, at some point in the struggle, the reformists will make the mistake of trusting the capitalists and will betray the workers. At that point the movement or a sizable portion of it, even though it might be reformist in nature, will be subject to further radicalization IF your tendency has been proven correct in it's analyses of the situations that have arisen.

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In a word, yes. Proud Public Servant Jul 2013 #1
In a word, no. ChairmanAgnostic Jul 2013 #2
Perhaps. TBF Jul 2013 #3
hmmm pretty interesting limpyhobbler Jul 2013 #7
Marx and Engels wrote each other letters talking about the problem. Starry Messenger Jul 2013 #4
Thanks for the links limpyhobbler Aug 2013 #11
In a word, maybe. Jackpine Radical Jul 2013 #5
So the middle class in some places may turn out to have been sort of temporary. limpyhobbler Aug 2013 #8
Well to me that's the crux of this question...... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #9
Yeah it really seems that way. limpyhobbler Aug 2013 #10
There's a lot of history behind ALL of these reform/revolution arguments.... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #12
Yeah this is limpyhobbler Aug 2013 #13
Well I'm not so sure that eminent domain couldn't be used.... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #14
They should be using eminent domain for that. limpyhobbler Aug 2013 #16
reform vs revolution DonCoquixote Aug 2013 #28
Just a quick reply as I have to go to work in a few.......... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #29
my reply DonCoquixote Aug 2013 #30
Well once again, I don't think that it's a guarantee that the ....... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #31
Marx didn't get industry. joshcryer Jul 2013 #6
"at no point in history did new productive facilities actually change the mode of production" BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #20
That's a Jensen view. joshcryer Aug 2013 #21
i appreciate the name-dropping BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #22
I don't reject that notion. joshcryer Aug 2013 #23
"Ideally historical materialism would've said, BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #24
it was actually utopian socialists, e.g. the saint simonians - BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #25
I didn't say historical materialism said that. joshcryer Aug 2013 #32
i'm sorry historical materialism didnt say what you wanted it to say BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #33
What do you think "new productive faculties" are? joshcryer Aug 2013 #34
you remain wrong about the "new productive faculties" BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #35
This message was self-deleted by its author BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #36
Capitalism is inherently hierarchical. joshcryer Aug 2013 #37
what is workplace alienation? BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #38
Eh. Disengagement commenced. joshcryer Aug 2013 #39
Three things changed since Marx that were firsts in history Taverner Aug 2013 #15
Coal, oil and gas certainly did fuel the development of modern society. limpyhobbler Aug 2013 #17
The Peak Oil Hypothesis still holds Taverner Aug 2013 #18
no BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #19
Yes he did, for a couple of reasons Warpy Aug 2013 #26
Not at all. David__77 Aug 2013 #27
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