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joshcryer

(62,536 posts)
34. What do you think "new productive faculties" are?
Mon Aug 26, 2013, 02:21 AM
Aug 2013
We have seen above, that the first step in the revolution by the working class is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class to win the battle of democracy.

The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm


He doesn't discuss changing the way production works in relation to the worker and the industry. I already quoted him being wrong in that "new productive faculties" did not result in "changing all the economic relations that were but necessary relations of that particular mode of production."

For Marx, production relations are literally tied to a given technology, he doesn't see technology as an emancipating force.

M. Proudhon the economist understands very well that men make cloth, linen, or silk materials in definite relations of production. But what he has not understood is that these definite social relations are just as much produced by men as linen, flax, etc. Social relations are closely bound up with productive forces. In acquiring new productive forces men change their mode of production; and in changing their mode of production, in changing the way of earning their living, they change all their social relations. The hand-mill gives you society with the feudal lord; the steam-mill society with the industrial capitalist. The same men who establish their social relations in conformity with the material productivity, produce also principles, ideas, and categories, in conformity with their social relations. Thus the ideas, these categories, are as little eternal as the relations they express. They are historical and transitory products. (...) The production relations of every society form a whole.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/poverty-philosophy/ch02.htm


I say that is completely wrong and utterly ludicrous, completely unsupportable. A hand mill is merely an advancement on the mortar and pestle, reducing labor and allowing one to make grain more efficiently. It doesn't magically enable feudal society.

Recommendations

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In a word, yes. Proud Public Servant Jul 2013 #1
In a word, no. ChairmanAgnostic Jul 2013 #2
Perhaps. TBF Jul 2013 #3
hmmm pretty interesting limpyhobbler Jul 2013 #7
Marx and Engels wrote each other letters talking about the problem. Starry Messenger Jul 2013 #4
Thanks for the links limpyhobbler Aug 2013 #11
In a word, maybe. Jackpine Radical Jul 2013 #5
So the middle class in some places may turn out to have been sort of temporary. limpyhobbler Aug 2013 #8
Well to me that's the crux of this question...... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #9
Yeah it really seems that way. limpyhobbler Aug 2013 #10
There's a lot of history behind ALL of these reform/revolution arguments.... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #12
Yeah this is limpyhobbler Aug 2013 #13
Well I'm not so sure that eminent domain couldn't be used.... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #14
They should be using eminent domain for that. limpyhobbler Aug 2013 #16
reform vs revolution DonCoquixote Aug 2013 #28
Just a quick reply as I have to go to work in a few.......... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #29
my reply DonCoquixote Aug 2013 #30
Well once again, I don't think that it's a guarantee that the ....... socialist_n_TN Aug 2013 #31
Marx didn't get industry. joshcryer Jul 2013 #6
"at no point in history did new productive facilities actually change the mode of production" BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #20
That's a Jensen view. joshcryer Aug 2013 #21
i appreciate the name-dropping BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #22
I don't reject that notion. joshcryer Aug 2013 #23
"Ideally historical materialism would've said, BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #24
it was actually utopian socialists, e.g. the saint simonians - BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #25
I didn't say historical materialism said that. joshcryer Aug 2013 #32
i'm sorry historical materialism didnt say what you wanted it to say BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #33
What do you think "new productive faculties" are? joshcryer Aug 2013 #34
you remain wrong about the "new productive faculties" BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #35
This message was self-deleted by its author BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #36
Capitalism is inherently hierarchical. joshcryer Aug 2013 #37
what is workplace alienation? BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #38
Eh. Disengagement commenced. joshcryer Aug 2013 #39
Three things changed since Marx that were firsts in history Taverner Aug 2013 #15
Coal, oil and gas certainly did fuel the development of modern society. limpyhobbler Aug 2013 #17
The Peak Oil Hypothesis still holds Taverner Aug 2013 #18
no BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #19
Yes he did, for a couple of reasons Warpy Aug 2013 #26
Not at all. David__77 Aug 2013 #27
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