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mojowork_n

(2,354 posts)
28. There are two entirely separate questions involved.
Sun Jun 10, 2012, 07:45 PM
Jun 2012

Before I even start to compose a reply, let me please un-stuff the words you've put in my mouth.


  • I'm certainly not claiming "someone is doing it" -- stealing an election -- because 'paranoid logic' sez it must be so.
  • I don't 'believe' fraud occurred.
  • Using "proof" and "electronic voting" in the same sentence is a little fuzzy and meaningless, isn't it?


Yes, I have reasons to suspect the accuracy, reliability and security of electronic voting systems. They've been abandoned in favor of a return to paper ballots, in Great Britain, Ireland, and the Netherlands. {See: http://www.libdemvoice.org/evoting-why-it-was-abandoned-in-the-uk-22488.html } (Hey, I don't know, I don't have any idea how complete that list is. It's just what popped up. I've been reading up on this but still have research to do.)

But what I really want to say is, there are TWO separate and distinct questions here.

Question 1 is big, wide-ranging and open-ended. It's asking:

"Gee, what happened in the election?"

What were the issues and messages? Who said and wrote what, and how were those statements disseminated and received, by whom? From the start of the campaign to the last day, how many "political messages" were seen, heard or read by typical voter(s) and what effects did they all have on voters' decision-making? You're not looking for 'proof' of anything, just useful general lessons for the next go-around.

Question 2 is more specific. How were votes recorded, who did the tabulating -- how? -- and who was in charge of making sure that all guidelines and controls were followed.

The most important aspect of that question is, "Is it possible to have any certainty or confidence that the recorded vote numbers were accurate?" (Even if all the guidelines and controls were followed.)

It's always worth asking no matter what kind of voting equipment is used or who's in charge of the election.

This isn't a perfect world and it would be highly unusual for any election to be conducted "perfectly," without any errors. In recent presidential elections, I think it was typical to see more than two million ballots discarded as "spoiled," nation-wide, each time. On a variety of different types of voting equipment.

There are always going to be mechanical errors. Whether you have paper ballots, punch cards, touchscreen machines (voter's finger touched the screen but no signal was generated, or the push was out of sequence or generated the wrong signal), or optical scanners (pencil mark was too light or too thick for the machine to read), some occasional small errors are likely inevitable. Occasionally, voters even spoil ballots themselves, because they can't decide or can't remember or just impulsively rush away to a bathroom or other emergency. (I don't know, I suppose it happens.)

It's only when you see patterns emerge -- such as the disproportionately skewed number of 'spoiled ballots' in Latino, Native American and black precincts in New Mexico, in 2004 and again in 2008 -- that you need to begin to look harder to see what were some of the factors that led to those "errors." For example:

In a precinct-by-precinct analysis of the Florida 2000 race, the U.S. Civil Rights Commission discovered that 54 percent of spoiled ballots were cast by African-Americans. Florida is typical. Nationwide, the number of black votes "disappeared" into the spoiled pile is about 1 million. The other million in the no-count pit come mainly from Hispanic, Native-American and poor white precincts...


http://www.gregpalast.com/kerry-won-ohio-rn-just-count-the-ballots-at-the-back-of-the-bus/

But again, it would be useless to suggest that every single one of the mis-votes that were cast in those Florida districts represented a deliberate act of voter suppression, or electoral ethnic cleansing. That could be an over-reach. (Maybe.)

It's usually enough to create and continue to tolerate the conditions that tend to cause a higher percentage of vote tabulation errors in those districts. Make sure that the voting machines are older and not as well maintained. Make people stand in longer lines to get to them to create delays and congestion. If the polling place workers are short-staffed and under-supported, but expected to serve a bigger crowd of people, there will likely be a higher percentage of "unreadable" ballots cast no matter what else happens. ....In other words, those kinds of election day voting effects could be just ordinary neglect. They doesn't always have to be the product of a deliberate or malicious purging of the voter rolls. Certain kinds of voters just have more difficulty than others when it comes to registering to vote. Sometimes that keeps them from making it all the way through the line and into the voting booth. When their ballots are mis-tabulated with greater frequency, well, that's just par for the course for 'those people,' isn't it?

(As I said before, we don't live in a perfect world.)

In the recall election in Wisconsin this past week it was also certainly disturbing to see that despite the predictions about a "too close to call" race, the big, big turnout in a lot of places and huge numbers (HUGE) of 1st-time voters, two of the big news channels "called the race" in the middle of the afternoon. That was before a lot of voters had even gotten off work and had a chance to decide if they were even going to make an effort to vote.

So with all of that -- it's certainly a messy process, in a lot of ways, isn't it? -- I'm not close to claiming that I -- or anyone else -- has any "proof" that fraud or election theft took place.

That whole question of "exit polls" taken while the vote's still going on is another separate, distinct issue that also has nothing to do with the type of voting equipment used. No one but the media has access to any of those polls, or any information about when and where they were taken, let alone what the results were.

So we don't know what was going on there. We don't know how many routinely mis-cast or spoiled ballots there might have been, or how many people who might have wanted to vote didn't make the effort because of the early "projected winner" declaration.

On the other hand, what do we know?

Here's the state of Wisconsin's Government Accountability Board "Voting Equipment by County" map. Some text in the middle of the page makes the claim that the information is all up to date (except as noted for Pierce County.)

http://gab.wi.gov/elections-voting/voting-equipment/voting-equipment-use

I opened the pdf to see the more detailed list, by county and municipality, to check something reported at that "Meet Command Central" link to the Wisconsin Citizens Media Co-op website.

John Washburn filed an open records request for data on the touchscreen (2 eProm) voting machines used in Fox Point (wards 1 - 4) in last summer's Senate recall race.

The pdf from the GAB (page 97 of 169; April 21, 2012) lists Fox Point this way:

COUNTY TYPE MUNICIPALITY SYSTEM VENDOR EQUIPMENT ACCESSIBLE EQUIPMENT

VILLAGE FOX POINT Optical Scan ES&S Eagle w/ modem SEQ-AVC Edge II 5.0.24


...Phooey, enough.

STOP

I don't think there's going to be "proof" of anything on the GAB website -- whether it's up to date or accurate or not -- but
wouldn't it be great if there was an actual:

audit verification of ballots that were cast?

Some states require optical scanners for that reason, so that they can do a manual paper audit of a percentage sample of the ballots that went through the machines.

Does the Wisconsin GAB have a requirement that that type of eVoting equipment is supposed to be used?

Is Governor W. in charge of, or does he have oversight over the GAB?

What's his record been when it comes to elections? (Let's forget about his student days at Marquette, that was so long ago.)
But more recently... Doesn't the John Doe investigation, so far, show that there may be reasons to doubt Scotty's ability to walk that fine line, between his responsibility to all of us (as a public official on taxpayer time), and his purely partisan activities campaigning on behalf of that permanent Republican majority?

That meeting in Boehner's office right after President Obama was elected, where the Republican congressional leaders met to plan their strategy for the next four years, and how they were going to work with the President. ("Party first," not "country first," is how I believe that went down. Was Gov. W. copied with those meeting notes?)









Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Here's what I don't understand. CrispyQ Jun 2012 #1
There are MANY here in Wisconsin scratching our heads Greybnk48 Jun 2012 #2
To me it does not pass the smell test at all Botany Jun 2012 #3
I agree that it smells funny. Greybnk48 Jun 2012 #11
Big Money rigged the voting machines itsrigged Jul 2012 #50
I had not heard that.... Do you have a source or a link... On election day midnight Jun 2012 #4
There was a huge campaign based on this message. CrispyQ Jun 2012 #5
Pages of info. discussing this election are going missing.. midnight Jun 2012 #29
a guy in my office got that call mzteris Jun 2012 #9
I cant imagine that made much of a dent in the voter turnout (which was very high statewide) -nt eowyn_of_rohan Jun 2012 #40
I wouldn't overlook the possibility of election fraud... NorthCarolina Jun 2012 #13
Actually, look at the results, compare the votes for Barrett 2010 and 2012. L. Coyote Jun 2012 #14
Yes, of course, and mojowork_n Jun 2012 #17
Indeed, people will sit out recall elections, more on one side than the other L. Coyote Jun 2012 #19
Television Rules the Nation (Daft Punk) mojowork_n Jun 2012 #20
Do you have a link that says that? midnight Jun 2012 #30
Voter turnout was HUGE in most of the state - record high turnout in a number of areas eowyn_of_rohan Jun 2012 #41
Here's a link... mojowork_n Jun 2012 #45
Enron was a master of numbers too... Please post a link to where you got the numbers... midnight Jun 2012 #33
What, you think I'm posting false election results? ROFLMAO L. Coyote Jun 2012 #34
The request was for your source, whatever it was. mojowork_n Jun 2012 #46
Start with a flawed method L. Coyote Jun 2012 #48
Honestly, I really believe that dotymed Jun 2012 #6
Will there be a re-count? And what kind of checking did the DOJ supposedly do? dmosh42 Jun 2012 #7
good question. Maybe they were with the tea party thugs who were harrassing and intimidating vot eowyn_of_rohan Jun 2012 #42
That's a statement of belief, and belief looks for the confirmation it needs to be reified HereSince1628 Jun 2012 #8
Confirmational bias is something a person can mojowork_n Jun 2012 #21
Acting on the notion "If I can think it, then someone is doing it" was HereSince1628 Jun 2012 #24
It has been proven, dozens of times, that dotymed Jun 2012 #27
i have no time or patience for those who choose to remain willfully ignorant on this... eowyn_of_rohan Jun 2012 #43
There are two entirely separate questions involved. mojowork_n Jun 2012 #28
Nothing illogical about inspecting the source code because that is the evidence... midnight Jun 2012 #31
Thank you. sybylla Jun 2012 #37
a major problem we have are the clerks and pollworkers who continue to defend voting machines. eowyn_of_rohan Jun 2012 #44
Sorry. mojowork_n Jun 2012 #47
If the result was pre-determined, why spend so much cash on ads? Sirveri Jun 2012 #26
The whole claim that people voted for Walker because they were against the recall on principle drm604 Jun 2012 #10
EXCELLENT JOB, BRAD!!!! loudsue Jun 2012 #12
Just wondering SoutherDem Jun 2012 #15
Good questions. mojowork_n Jun 2012 #18
The recall election schedule is set by the Wisconsin constitution dragonlady Jun 2012 #23
Thanks for the answer SoutherDem Jun 2012 #25
Recall timeline determined by our constitution. sybylla Jun 2012 #38
The comments following the post bradblog video have a few more details mojowork_n Jun 2012 #16
This information only supports the fact that of all the tools used in this election nothing was more midnight Jun 2012 #32
That's the 64 bazillion dollar question, the extent to which mojowork_n Jun 2012 #35
PS mojowork_n Jun 2012 #36
Mojowork just saw this.... Thanks... I was aware of this before the election. midnight Jun 2012 #49
Two things: xfundy Jun 2012 #22
Like Microsoft? gregoire Jul 2012 #51
shocking fea5625252fe Jun 2012 #39
Latest Discussions»Region Forums»Wisconsin»Wisconsin aftermath: Vote...»Reply #28