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In reply to the discussion: Why (baseload) generators are terrified of solar [View all]kristopher
(29,798 posts)28. So you think people should be forced to live around nuclear plants they believe are unsafe?
Beyond our imagination: Fukushima and the problem of assessing risk
Severe accidents at nuclear reactors have occurred much more frequently than what risk-assessment models predicted.
BY M. V. RAMANA | 19 APRIL 2011
The probabilistic risk assessment method does a poor job of anticipating accidents in which a single event, such as a tsunami, causes failures in multiple safety systems.
Catastrophic nuclear accidents are inevitable, because designers and risk modelers cannot envision all possible ways in which complex systems can fail.
The multiple and ongoing accidents at the Fukushima reactors come as a reminder of the hazards associated with nuclear power. As with the earlier severe accidents at Chernobyl and Three Mile Island, it will take a long time before the full extent of what happened at Fukushima becomes clear. Even now, though, Fukushima sheds light on the troublesome and important question of whether nuclear reactors can ever be operated safely.
Engineers and other technical experts have two approaches for making nuclear reactors safe: The first is to design the reactor so that it is likely to recover from various initiating failures -- lowering the probability that the damage will spread, even in the absence of any protective actions, automatic or deliberate. The second approach, used in addition to the first, is to incorporate multiple protective systems, all of which would have to fail before a radioactive release could occur. This latter approach is known as "defense-in-depth," and it is often advertised as an assurance of nuclear safety. The World Nuclear Association, for example, claims that "reactors in the western world" use defense-in-depth "to achieve optimum safety."
Within this perspective, accidents are usually blamed, at least in part, on a lack of properly functioning safety systems, or on poor technical design. For example, analysts typically traced the catastrophic impacts of the Chernobyl accident to the reactor's lack of containment and its behavior when being operated at low power. Similarly, in response to the current Fukushima accidents, many analysts have focused on the weaknesses of the reactors' Mark 1 containment system.
Unfortunately, focusing on individual components -- rather than the system as a whole -- gives analysts a false sense of security. Here's how their thinking goes: For each safety system, there is only a small chance of failure at any given time, so it's exceedingly unlikely that more than one safety system will fail at the same moment. A severe accident can't happen unless multiple safety systems fail simultaneously or sequentially. Therefore, a severe accident is exceedingly unlikely....
Severe accidents at nuclear reactors have occurred much more frequently than what risk-assessment models predicted.
BY M. V. RAMANA | 19 APRIL 2011
The probabilistic risk assessment method does a poor job of anticipating accidents in which a single event, such as a tsunami, causes failures in multiple safety systems.
Catastrophic nuclear accidents are inevitable, because designers and risk modelers cannot envision all possible ways in which complex systems can fail.
The multiple and ongoing accidents at the Fukushima reactors come as a reminder of the hazards associated with nuclear power. As with the earlier severe accidents at Chernobyl and Three Mile Island, it will take a long time before the full extent of what happened at Fukushima becomes clear. Even now, though, Fukushima sheds light on the troublesome and important question of whether nuclear reactors can ever be operated safely.
Engineers and other technical experts have two approaches for making nuclear reactors safe: The first is to design the reactor so that it is likely to recover from various initiating failures -- lowering the probability that the damage will spread, even in the absence of any protective actions, automatic or deliberate. The second approach, used in addition to the first, is to incorporate multiple protective systems, all of which would have to fail before a radioactive release could occur. This latter approach is known as "defense-in-depth," and it is often advertised as an assurance of nuclear safety. The World Nuclear Association, for example, claims that "reactors in the western world" use defense-in-depth "to achieve optimum safety."
Within this perspective, accidents are usually blamed, at least in part, on a lack of properly functioning safety systems, or on poor technical design. For example, analysts typically traced the catastrophic impacts of the Chernobyl accident to the reactor's lack of containment and its behavior when being operated at low power. Similarly, in response to the current Fukushima accidents, many analysts have focused on the weaknesses of the reactors' Mark 1 containment system.
Unfortunately, focusing on individual components -- rather than the system as a whole -- gives analysts a false sense of security. Here's how their thinking goes: For each safety system, there is only a small chance of failure at any given time, so it's exceedingly unlikely that more than one safety system will fail at the same moment. A severe accident can't happen unless multiple safety systems fail simultaneously or sequentially. Therefore, a severe accident is exceedingly unlikely....
More at: http://thebulletin.org/web-edition/features/beyond-our-imagination-fukushima-and-the-problem-of-assessing-risk
How long can nuclear reactors last? US, industry extend spans
'What they're saying is really a fabrication,' retired reactor designer says
ROCKVILLE, Md. When commercial nuclear power was getting its start in the 1960s and 1970s, industry and regulators stated unequivocally that reactors were designed only to operate for 40 years. Now they tell another story insisting that the units were built with no inherent life span, and can run for up to a century, an Associated Press investigation shows.
By rewriting history, plant owners are making it easier to extend the lives of dozens of reactors in a relicensing process that resembles nothing more than an elaborate rubber stamp.
As part of a yearlong investigation of aging issues at the nation's nuclear power plants, the AP found that the relicensing process often lacks fully independent safety reviews. Records show that paperwork of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission sometimes matches word-for-word the language used in a plant operator's application.
Also, the relicensing process relies heavily on such paperwork, with very little onsite inspection and verification...
'What they're saying is really a fabrication,' retired reactor designer says
ROCKVILLE, Md. When commercial nuclear power was getting its start in the 1960s and 1970s, industry and regulators stated unequivocally that reactors were designed only to operate for 40 years. Now they tell another story insisting that the units were built with no inherent life span, and can run for up to a century, an Associated Press investigation shows.
By rewriting history, plant owners are making it easier to extend the lives of dozens of reactors in a relicensing process that resembles nothing more than an elaborate rubber stamp.
As part of a yearlong investigation of aging issues at the nation's nuclear power plants, the AP found that the relicensing process often lacks fully independent safety reviews. Records show that paperwork of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission sometimes matches word-for-word the language used in a plant operator's application.
Also, the relicensing process relies heavily on such paperwork, with very little onsite inspection and verification...
Editor's note: Links to the first three parts of this four-part series are at the end of this report.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43556350/ns/us_news-environment/#.T4jqEu3N7dl
Vermont has a plan to replace the plant's output, have you bothered to look for it?
As for plants that haven't reached the end of their design life, they would be subject to the forces demonstrated in the OP.
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So Solar PV needs to be PV + Conservation programs + ? to meet/beat AND reduce demand?
patrice
Apr 2012
#3
How does the current explosion in manufacturing capacity disprove the OP's thesis?
kristopher
Apr 2012
#7
How does the current explosion in manufacturing capacity disprove the OP's thesis?
kristopher
Apr 2012
#9
Yes the homeowners and the local communities who are getting that money are pretty happy
kristopher
Apr 2012
#14
So you think people should be forced to live around nuclear plants they believe are unsafe?
kristopher
Apr 2012
#28
See, I think you come off as someone who is more motivated by being anti-nuclear
XemaSab
Apr 2012
#72
Your posts lack specificity, don't blame me for your sloppy communication skills.
kristopher
Apr 2012
#44
Their claim "what is happening now" is not the graphic I see on any given day today.
joshcryer
Apr 2012
#47
No, I am not. If that graphic was representive of overall pricing between 2008 and 2012...
joshcryer
Apr 2012
#61
I'm very sure your self deleted comment to wraith is not relevant to our conversation.
kristopher
Apr 2012
#77
In a discussion specifically about sources of generation being put under pricing pressure
kristopher
Apr 2012
#96
The article does actually weasel around consumer pricing with capitalism verbiage.
joshcryer
Apr 2012
#99
The OP makes claims about "the impact that solar is having on electricity prices in Germany."
joshcryer
Apr 2012
#75
The OP supports the claims it makes as opposed to the strawman you are creating
kristopher
Apr 2012
#78
You're a liar when it comes to accusing me of having a "quest to protect the nuclear industry."
joshcryer
Apr 2012
#82
You consistently take positions that further the agenda of the nuclear industry.
kristopher
Apr 2012
#85
I take a position against misrepresentations in text. I take positions against being fooled.
joshcryer
Apr 2012
#86
What is the actual mechanism by which nuclear power shuts down a coal plant?
kristopher
Apr 2012
#118
So you do not want to shut down coal plants and you want to expand energy consumption.
kristopher
Apr 2012
#124
Remarkable! You accuse me of "not answering" when I've waited 2 days for your reply.
kristopher
Apr 2012
#126
You had your chance to talk about it like a grown-up kris. You chose the way of...
Dead_Parrot
Apr 2012
#130
Just to demonstrate how long this same conversation has been going on... nt
kristopher
Feb 2013
#136