Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

progree

(10,901 posts)
18. Can you please quantitatively compare the primary fuel in BTU used to power an electric car
Thu Oct 11, 2018, 06:56 PM
Oct 2018

to that of a gasoline-powered internal combustion engine car?

And yes, on the electric car side, I'm well aware of power plant inefficiencies and transmission line losses and charging/discharging battery cycle. I'm an M.S.E.E. that worked 15 years in generation planning, system operations, and transmission planning, so I'm well aware of power plant and transmission system inefficiencies and economics. Had my share of thermodynamic courses too.

An electric motor is far more efficient than an internal combustion engine (a true thermodynamic nightmare, just 15 to 20% efficient in turning the energy in the gasoline into power to the wheels). Much less efficient than all that is involved in power plant fuel -> wheel of an electric car.

Internal combustion engines have thermodynamic limits on efficiency, expressed as fraction of energy used to propel the vehicle compared to energy produced by burning fuel. Gasoline engines effectively use only 15% of the fuel energy content to move the vehicle or to power accessories, and diesel engines can reach on-board efficiency of 20%, while electric vehicles have on-board efficiency of over 90%, when counted against stored chemical energy, or around 80%, when counted against required energy to recharge.[66]
From Wiki ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car

[66] is a study by the Brookings Institution

Or compare the two in costs. More than 2 to 1 gasoline cost vs. electricity cost per mile using recent national averages prices $2.50/gallon and 12 cents/KWH. (Yes, both, and the ratio, vary substantially with locality. And then there is the issue of the increasing prevalence of time-of-use electric rates.).

As for greenhouse gasses,

Charging An Electric Vehicle Is Far Cleaner Than Driving On Gasoline, Everywhere In America, Forbes, 3/14/18
(disclosure: based on a Union of Concerned Scientists report, and written by a contributor, Silvio Marcacci, Energy Innovation: Policy and Technology Contributor, so it's not necessarily Forbes' opinion, or even a journalistic article, but more like an Op-Ed. So I'm not going to characterize this as "according to Forbes" )

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/03/14/charging-an-electric-vehicle-is-far-cleaner-than-driving-on-gasoline-everywhere-in-america/#17e211e471f8

Synopsis: Today, an average EV on the road in the U.S. has the same greenhouse-gas emissions as a car getting 80 miles per gallon (MPG). That’s up from 73 MPG in 2017. And in every corner of the U.S. driving an EV produces significantly fewer greenhouse gas emissions than cars powered only by gasoline.

That said, I shudder at the idea of disposing of all the batteries, and am somewhat aware of potential issues in the supply of certain critical materials like lithium.

Back to economics, one set of numbers that I saw recently say that the savings on gasoline vs. electric costs per mile saves only about $540 / year for a car driven 15,000 miles per year (at $2.50/gallon and 12 cents/KWH). Over 10 years, that's a savings of $5,400 neglecting inflation and the time value of money. Seemingly (to me) not enough to overcome the purchasing cost differential between an EV and its gasoline IC car equivalent.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/constancedouris/2017/10/24/the-bottom-line-on-electric-cars-theyre-cheaper-to-own/#507e33ba10b6

EV's don't hold their resale value well, either, but doesn't offer any quantifications --
https://clark.com/cars/is-it-cheaper-to-own-an-electric-car/

But some articles (such as the clark.com one above) claim that maintenance of electric cars are far less, but I haven't seen anything quantitative that includes the replacement of the battery pack, a multi-thousand dollar expense, or how often that is needed.
I saw somewhere that one of Rupert Murdoch's kids was going to be Tesla's new chairman... RockRaven Oct 2018 #1
Wonder if it's GM or Ford or both contributing to his campaign fund? brush Oct 2018 #2
0. Republican introduces new bill to end the $7,500 federal tax credit for electric cars and tax the Wyatt513 Oct 2018 #3
In other words, force people to be rich enough to buy electric cars? progree Oct 2018 #4
Only rich people can afford electric cars now Wyatt513 Oct 2018 #5
How does taxing gas so everyone is forced to buy a car that "only rich people can afford" help? uppityperson Oct 2018 #6
People not using our/fossil fuel Wyatt513 Oct 2018 #7
Citing The Daily Caller, a climate change denier? Brother Buzz Oct 2018 #8
Doncha know? The Daily Caller is the poor peoples' friend ROFLMFAO. n/t progree Oct 2018 #9
Well what do you deem appropriate? Wyatt513 Oct 2018 #10
That piece is an honest assessment of the UN position Brother Buzz Oct 2018 #12
So you think the way to combate man made climate change Wyatt513 Oct 2018 #13
Industry is responsible for about 85 percent of total greenhouse gases Brother Buzz Oct 2018 #16
What about subsiding poor people so they can buy electric cars? uppityperson Oct 2018 #11
A $7,000 subsidize is just for rich people Wyatt513 Oct 2018 #14
What about subsidizing so poor people can buy electric cars? uppityperson Oct 2018 #17
This message was self-deleted by its author mahina Oct 2018 #29
To begin with - raising the gas tax is political suicide - straight from a congressional staffer Finishline42 Oct 2018 #24
See, that is the crux of the problem. MichMan Oct 2018 #27
It doesn't matter a whit. This subsidy for rich people has nothing to do with the environment. NNadir Oct 2018 #15
Can you please quantitatively compare the primary fuel in BTU used to power an electric car progree Oct 2018 #18
Well, I don't get my science from articles in Forbes, nor do I credit the idea of ignoring... NNadir Oct 2018 #19
On externalities - any "science" article that applies to the U.S., instead of China? progree Oct 2018 #21
I said I was being generous at 90% for all of the conversions, but what does it matter? NNadir Oct 2018 #22
Some insights into why I perhaps myopically focus on the U.S. progree Oct 2018 #23
OK. Everyone should do what they can; clearly you are; but I hope... NNadir Oct 2018 #25
I think you might have a misunderstanding... NeoGreen Oct 2018 #20
I'm not rich and that subsidy helped me afford an electric car tinrobot Oct 2018 #31
I'm very happy for your personal story. NNadir Oct 2018 #32
100 million electric vehicles? Where did you get that? tinrobot Oct 2018 #33
He likes to throw numbers around to confuse the subject Finishline42 Oct 2018 #34
these are the same people that killed the electric street car in the 40s AllaN01Bear Oct 2018 #26
They must be really old by now MichMan Oct 2018 #28
This is fine with me TBH Calculating Oct 2018 #30
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Environment & Energy»Republican introduces new...»Reply #18