Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

NNadir

(37,677 posts)
16. Ammonia is another energy storage chemical. Energy storage requires a source of primary energy.
Sun Mar 3, 2019, 07:49 AM
Mar 2019

Like all energy storage devices, it requires the loss of primary energy. Almost all of the industrial ammonia on earth is manufactured from dangerous natural gas in a reformation reaction to make hydrogen for the reductive hydrogenation of nitrogen gas, again with a loss of energy.

Increases in the efficiency of this process, the Haber-Bosch process, which was discovered in the early 20th century, has led to a vast expansion in scale, with the resultant environmental damage being tremendous, but probably necessary in the sense without it at this point, we would be completely unable to feed three billion people, never mind seven billion people.

These ammonia schemes for cars are not new; not wise; and are in fact very dangerous.

If that guy's car springs a leak, even from a fuel line corroded by base, it may kill people, innocent people.

Pure ammonia is a gas, an easily liquified gas, but a gas all the same. It is corrosive, and unlike gasoline, the vapors will kill or blind a person rapidly. In lower concentrations, ammonia is a terrible, terrible environmental problem inasmuch as it causes eutrophication of water supplies (as agricultural run-off).

Many chemists are experienced with working with liquid ammonia - I am - and we treat it with healthy respect.

If we were going to make a liquid energy storage fuel for our stupid cars, dimethyl ether is a vastly superior fuel. It also is easily liquified, but in contrast to ammonia is non-toxic (it's used as a hairspray propellant), is easily removed from water, does not cause eutrophication of water supplies, in contrast to dangerous natural gas has an atmospheric half-life of about 5 days, and its production is well known on an industrial scale, and can be produced from any carbon source, including but not limited to carbon dioxide.

It would be a very, very, very, very, very bad idea to take this guys "Haber-Bosch plant in your garage" scheme seriously. It is yet another approach to the appalling and dangerous libertarian fantasy of distributed energy, the worst example of distributed energy being the automobile itself, with this scheme poised to make the automobile even a worse disaster than it already is.

It is a shame that people are not required to learn the 2nd law of thermodynamics and understand it deeply by at least junior high school. They would then understand that "energy from air" is a nonsense statement. The very, very, very, very stupid person Ayn Rand in one of her idiot novels made this an element of it. It was dumb then, and is worse now.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Interesting Sherman A1 Mar 2019 #1
I thought it was pretty interesting, sounds promising - and something that we won't hear on the news Rhiannon12866 Mar 2019 #2
We won't hear about it as you say Sherman A1 Mar 2019 #3
And the environment really ought to be at the forefront of news these days Rhiannon12866 Mar 2019 #4
Precisely Sherman A1 Mar 2019 #5
...because it isn't in the interests of watoos Mar 2019 #11
Precisely Sherman A1 Mar 2019 #14
It's a mixed blessing. TexasTowelie Mar 2019 #7
Thanks for the information Sherman A1 Mar 2019 #13
While it may reduce carbon emissions there will be a tradeoff. TexasTowelie Mar 2019 #6
Thanks for weighing in! Rhiannon12866 Mar 2019 #8
Yep, NOx is just as bad as SOx. KY_EnviroGuy Mar 2019 #9
"Unless they use solar or wind to power the ammonia machines..." jberryhill Mar 2019 #22
And, when questioned on that little detail, they would say.... KY_EnviroGuy Mar 2019 #33
according to the article garybeck Mar 2019 #34
What industry would that be? jberryhill Mar 2019 #35
Drive past a Oil Refinery CDerekGo Mar 2019 #26
Yes, and I've worked in a number of them. KY_EnviroGuy Mar 2019 #32
Here you go.... jberryhill Mar 2019 #36
Thank you, JBH. A very interesting design. KY_EnviroGuy Mar 2019 #38
It would be good on farm use where you don't have to "punch it." 3Hotdogs Mar 2019 #15
I've never understood why farms don't run on algae oil? Finishline42 Mar 2019 #27
True, but... TreasonousBastard Mar 2019 #17
Great idea tiptonic Mar 2019 #10
Bingo. watoos Mar 2019 #12
Catch and kill isn't only for the news media mitch96 Mar 2019 #28
How do they manage to do that jberryhill Mar 2019 #37
Ammonia is another energy storage chemical. Energy storage requires a source of primary energy. NNadir Mar 2019 #16
OK, that puts a different spin on it. TreasonousBastard Mar 2019 #18
I was waiting for you to comment on this thread. TexasTowelie Mar 2019 #19
I see you commented along similar lines above. The biggest issue I see with Haber-Bosch... NNadir Mar 2019 #23
Thanks for the summary exboyfil Mar 2019 #20
Thanks for the emphasis on the 2nd law of thermodynamics - you can't get something for free erronis Mar 2019 #21
Thank you NNadir, I always learn something from your posts. And aside from the refresher c-rational Mar 2019 #24
Excellent rebuttal. defacto7 Mar 2019 #29
My first thought was about safeinOhio Mar 2019 #25
This brings back a funny memory to me. Many years ago justhanginon Mar 2019 #30
Ammonia is commonly used as a refrigerant in the agricultural industry. hunter Mar 2019 #31
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Environment & Energy»He's Creating A New Fuel ...»Reply #16