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hunter

(40,672 posts)
15. You don't have to work on that scale to get a feel for the problem.
Wed Jul 5, 2023, 09:27 PM
Jul 2023

It's the same problem at any scale, from a house in Las Vegas to a regional electric grid.

The average household in Las Vegas uses about 30 kilowatt hours of electricity per day.

If we are being generous, the capacity factor of solar is 33%.

Las Vegas solar panels produce daily, on average, in kilowatt hours, eight times their nameplate wattage. A 4 kilowatt solar array will produce 32 kilowatt hours of power on an average day. Bingo. Enough for a house. (Your mileage may very. Probably for the worse.)

Making a house that gets half its power from solar energy is easy. You get enough solar panels to cover your household at it's maximum demand, say when the air conditioner is running flat out, you are cooking lunch on your inductive stove, you are doing your laundry, and the heat pump water heater is running. That's more than 4 kilowatts, but go with it. Solar panels are inexpensive these days, or so I've heard.

Then you size your batteries to carry you through the evening and into the next morning until the sun is high enough in the sky to start generating electricity again. 26 kilowatt hours ought to do it. Last I looked, $22,000 is about right for those batteries if you have an electrician friend.

When that solar system can't carry you, especially on the colder, cloudier days of winter, you simply rely on fossil fuels to keep you going.

Getting to at least 98% reliable 100% solar power (which isn't that great as it means seven days a year of extreme electricity shortages) is another problem entirely, requiring ludicrous amounts of storage, whatever that storage medium is, be it batteries, hydrogen, magic beans, whatever you've got.

The wretched reality of solar and wind power is that outages occur over large areas as do large surpluses. When you've got baskets full of zucchini your neighbor has baskets full of zucchini too, more than you or they can use. When you don't have zucchini neither does your neighbor.

You've got a similar problem with grain, but grain can be stored for a year without too much fuss. Put it in a silo. It's not so simple with zucchini or electricity. Or hydrogen, for anyone who cares.

Coal and nuclear power don't work that way. When one power plant goes offline other power plants continue on and it's possible to obtain near 99.9% grid reliability. The zucchini is always available, all year.

That's not quite the case with natural gas, which depends upon pipeline supplies. When the pipeline fails so do all the gas plants attached to it., including the gas plants propping up those solar and wind follies. Ask Texas.

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So, out of curiosity, if say you were making giant solar grid Hugh_Lebowski Jul 2023 #1
probably twice as big Blues Heron Jul 2023 #2
You're dreaming. NNadir Jul 2023 #3
This is actually a more complex question than you would think. NNadir Jul 2023 #4
Not asking you to do something crazy complex like a paper to submit to a bank for a loan Hugh_Lebowski Jul 2023 #5
If nukes are the only way, then this can't be possible. There is no numerical answer to this. Blues Heron Jul 2023 #6
Yeah, let's burn the planet because we have paranoids afraid of clean energy. NNadir Jul 2023 #8
OK,I have a few minutes; I'll propose a new energy unit, "A California" corresponding to "homes..." NNadir Jul 2023 #7
Thanks for doing that, but not really my question :) Hugh_Lebowski Jul 2023 #9
He answered it - 1 solar exajoule is 8 californias, 1 H2 exajoule is 13.4 californias Blues Heron Jul 2023 #10
It's relatively easy to calculate those numbers from the numbers in the post I provided. NNadir Jul 2023 #11
Let me ask what I'm wondering in the simplest terms possible Hugh_Lebowski Jul 2023 #12
He gave you the ratio - its 13.4 to 8 Blues Heron Jul 2023 #13
All I saw him speaking about is what (I interpreted as) the MAKING of the Hydrogen piece Hugh_Lebowski Jul 2023 #14
I think that is included in the calculation. Blues Heron Jul 2023 #16
Nothing in that post's verbiage suggests it does to me Hugh_Lebowski Jul 2023 #17
pretty sure the reference to: liquid hydrogen having an energy content of roughly 120 MJ/kg. Blues Heron Jul 2023 #18
And without further clarification I assume 'energy content' refers to a theoretical maximum Hugh_Lebowski Jul 2023 #20
good article on fuel cell efficiency here Blues Heron Jul 2023 #22
Let's stick with Exajoules (1) and Californias, since CAISO gives Solar Output every day. NNadir Jul 2023 #23
Yup. I was just curious about the scale involved if you tried to use hydrogen Hugh_Lebowski Jul 2023 #24
Yeah, it's more or less a theoretical lower limit. Reality would... NNadir Jul 2023 #26
You don't have to work on that scale to get a feel for the problem. hunter Jul 2023 #15
Thanks for that, and it's more or less as I assumed 'things to be' Hugh_Lebowski Jul 2023 #19
Here's the argument I've used previously: hunter Jul 2023 #21
Thanks mate, trenchant points :) nt Hugh_Lebowski Jul 2023 #25
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