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Environment & Energy
In reply to the discussion: Kill the Economy [View all]NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)92. To be blunt, most animals cannot even prove they are self-aware
This is a pre-requisite to private ownership, for an animal must understand it is a unique entity before it could see that entity as solely having access to a specific object according to a universal law.
How many times have you heard a parent telling a child to share, because the child isnt doing it on their own?
As far as children are concerned, it isn't private ownership that babies & toddlers are attempting; their early desires preclude anyone else from owning anything. They want to touch, taste, hold, interact, etc, with everything that interests them without the understanding that other people have a "right" (ie, private ownership) to that object. Clearly, if a baby/toddler cannot grasp other people have private rights to objects, then certainly I could not extrapolate their sole desire for objects follows any cognitive pattern that suggests they perceive a natural personal "right" to have objects; rather, it suggests that they do not recognize the necessity of having "rights" in the process of "possessing" an object (and we are assuming children even want possession as we understand it rather than holding, interacting, loving, etc. Our very observations are filtered through our conditioned lenses and we are labeling behaviors according to our guesses). In other words, they think they should have immediate access to everything simply because they want access to everything (not because its "theirs" and will forever be "theirs" alone). From these early points on, much of our organization of reality and interacting is taught from parents (who do in fact understand private ownership and try and mold the child's behavior to become cohesive with society).
Raising children is very interesting, and I quickly learned they do not naturally understand the "way of the world". They do not understand why we cannot live in every open-house we may go to, or drive any car that we see, or eat out of some else's garden (despite picking wild blackberries), or even go down to the beach on a private access path (that one really threw my 5 year old for a loop--a "private" beach?!?). These are things you have to explain once or twice, and then after that, these concepts quickly become building blocks they use construct their understanding of reality with.
By the way, I make some effort to teach primitive perspectives to my children about labor, ownership and existence, and occasionally take them foraging with me. While I do what I can with my limited white-guy world-view, they seem to very quickly and easily assimilate these concepts--much quicker than modern concepts about labor, capital, ownership and religion. Their brains soak it up like a sponge, as if animist/pantheist spirituality, communalism and foraging are hard-wired. In any case, Im just trying to offer a diversity of thoughts by presenting lots of different ideas of reality, but anecdotally, I do not find our modern ways of life as the way "natural" brains are wired to function as much as more simpler, primitive ideas. We have a very complex society; of course a child's brain would not easily grasp these concepts. Private ownership is an immensely complicated topic in itself that you take for granted (that is why its such a large part of the law). Our entire economy depends upon recognizing it. Natural? Its a tough sell
on edit: With a little more thought, I'd have to conclude that the "natural" urge (before conditioning) is to want immediate universal access to everything, without complexly answering if anyone else should have the same thing (which causes a conflict societies must resolve). Our society resolves this conflict by teaching people they must earn universal access to some things, and respect other people's ability to do the same. Communal societies resolve this by teaching people they can have near-universal access to everything, insofar as they allow other people the same by co-operatively sharing when there is a conflict. So simpler communal societies are probably closer to our natural state, by just trying to work out how two people can share the same tool. Our society must introduce concepts of earning and limited access to resources that could be better utilized if commonly shared, which is much more complex and seems to lead to conflicts or inefficient usage of resources.
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“The modern economy is slavery; it forces everyone to work in such a way their labor is exploited…”
OKIsItJustMe
Dec 2012
#2
Why do you think people make "poor" choices that make them life-long servants to debt?
NoOneMan
Dec 2012
#43
Why? Are we born that way? Are we molded that way to benefit something? Do we "choose" it?
NoOneMan
Dec 2012
#47
I think Wesley had the right idea, that it takes training to combat our “natural instincts”
OKIsItJustMe
Dec 2012
#48
Natural instincts? I don't see hunter-gatherers going into debt, consuming everything in sight
NoOneMan
Dec 2012
#49
I completely reject your premise that humans just naturally want material objects
NoOneMan
Dec 2012
#51
"Our key error was our choice to see ourselves as being separate from the world that sustains us"
NoOneMan
Dec 2012
#114
The level that consumerism requires isn't natural. We are conditioned to it as a matter of policy:
cprise
Dec 2012
#88
“It is a proven fact that health has declined drastically since the onset of agriculture…”
OKIsItJustMe
Dec 2012
#107
“…only makes sense among a diseased population living with stress and nutritional deficiencies.”
OKIsItJustMe
Dec 2012
#128
Agriculture as “Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race”? – Anthropology 2.1
OKIsItJustMe
Dec 2012
#124
I feel like Antrosio just rubbed feces into my cortex while urinating on Diamond's name
NoOneMan
Dec 2012
#126
“… shorter stature … agriculture coincided with a massive reduction to human health”
OKIsItJustMe
Dec 2012
#145
"A decline of stature of historic populations has been used to indicate nutritional status."
NoOneMan
Dec 2012
#146
Interacting with an environment not of your choosing has no impact on the veracity of one's message
NoOneMan
Dec 2012
#159
Billions of people are malnourished and a billion face perpetual hunger already
NoOneMan
Dec 2012
#168
Almost all the health care advances are merely to negate the consequences of nutritional deficits,
DonCoquixote
Dec 2012
#59
"One of the most profound changes to occur with the foraging to farming transition.....
NoOneMan
Dec 2012
#77
the kind of "real" that matters is "stuff happening to me directly" - which is starting too
phantom power
Dec 2012
#3
"'survival of the fittest' does not quite work under these conditions", we THINK.
AtheistCrusader
Dec 2012
#39
This much is certain, we can affect our environment. (We’ve been doing it for millennia.)
OKIsItJustMe
Dec 2012
#15
It seems my skepticism about microfinance was misdirected, but not misplaced
GliderGuider
Dec 2012
#27