Environment & Energy

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)

115. We do have a tendency to perpetually increase complexity to deal with issues

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:09 PM

Dec 2012

Whether it is through technology, religion or bureaucracy, you can see this same pattern. Mankind has a problem, then comes up with a more complex solution, which has its own problems, which require further complexity. Each additional layer requires more and more energy to implement and maintain, requiring us to consistently find more and more energy to keep our civilization stumbling forward. Was our first problem intermittent scarcity via foraging, and some time ago we decided to increase complexity in our food system so we wouldn't have to have a natural population reduction (like the other animals)? And from there, the rest is history.

Check out Collapse of Complex Societies

and (IMHO) a system with problems is better than no system at all

Maybe, maybe not. If the infrastructure required to implement a system has consequences such that the human condition is worse off than without both that system and infrastructure, then probably not. That is precisely the case I am making about our medical technology in the first place, which only makes sense among a diseased population living with stress and nutritional deficiencies.

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Kill the Economy [View all] Speck Tater Dec 2012 OP

Good riddance NoOneMan Dec 2012 #1

�The modern economy is slavery; it forces everyone to work in such a way their labor is exploited�� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #2

Not a bit NoOneMan Dec 2012 #5

Clearly, you don�t know what �slavery� is� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #6

Forcing you to work to live and exploiting that labor is slavery NoOneMan Dec 2012 #9

That is very clearly framed. GliderGuider Dec 2012 #10

Um� this is BS� seriously OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #12

You know how to free a slave? NoOneMan Dec 2012 #22

You really don�t get it, do you OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #36

Of course a slave wouldn't! NoOneMan Dec 2012 #38

Nonsense OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #42

Why do you think people make "poor" choices that make them life-long servants to debt? NoOneMan Dec 2012 #43

Poor impulse control OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #46

Why? Are we born that way? Are we molded that way to benefit something? Do we "choose" it? NoOneMan Dec 2012 #47

I think Wesley had the right idea, that it takes training to combat our �natural instincts� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #48

Natural instincts? I don't see hunter-gatherers going into debt, consuming everything in sight NoOneMan Dec 2012 #49

I expect hunter-gatherers had similar problems OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #52

Well, what about those around today? NoOneMan Dec 2012 #54

So, tell me� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #57

It is not my home, nor my people NoOneMan Dec 2012 #60

#FirstWorldProblem OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #63

That's a beautiful article about them NoOneMan Dec 2012 #65

The system is designed to push people and governments into debt cprise Dec 2012 #28

Employers do not need to beat their employees to make them productive NoOneMan Dec 2012 #40

However, to be a slave, one must be owned by someone else OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #44

Almost everything around us is useless and distracting NoOneMan Dec 2012 #45

�� we believe we "need" (because something taught us so)� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #50

I completely reject your premise that humans just naturally want material objects NoOneMan Dec 2012 #51

Can you demonstrate that this desire for possessions is not natural? OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #53

Homo Sapiens were on earth long before agriculture and religion NoOneMan Dec 2012 #55

Uh huh� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #56

Whoa, don't let that strawman catch on fire before you are done weaving it! NoOneMan Dec 2012 #58

OK, so how about at a much smaller level? OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #61

Its not about hard work NoOneMan Dec 2012 #64

Who programmed the animals? OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #66

Satan. He does everything bad. NoOneMan Dec 2012 #67

Interesting� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #85

No, animals do not have a natural, unlearned concept of private ownership NoOneMan Dec 2012 #86

Interesting� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #89

To be blunt, most animals cannot even prove they are self-aware NoOneMan Dec 2012 #92

Re: �To be blunt, most animals cannot even prove they are self-aware� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #94

Self-awareness and emotions are two different things NoOneMan Dec 2012 #95

I don�t believe I said that emotions and self-awareness were the same OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #96

With all due respect, NoOneMan Dec 2012 #97

So, then, you don�t believe that �animals� exhibit �natural behaviors?� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #98

In a human nature vs nurture issue... NoOneMan Dec 2012 #100

I�m sorry OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #101

Culture NoOneMan Dec 2012 #104

Have you read Daniel Quinn? GliderGuider Dec 2012 #108

Yes, and I think it is as viable as a theory as "we all suck" NoOneMan Dec 2012 #110

I don't spend a lot of energy worrying about what is "more natural" GliderGuider Dec 2012 #112

"Our key error was our choice to see ourselves as being separate from the world that sustains us" NoOneMan Dec 2012 #114

The level that consumerism requires isn't natural. We are conditioned to it as a matter of policy: cprise Dec 2012 #88

I will watch it later OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #90

Aside from consumerism, the medical system does this as well NoOneMan Dec 2012 #99

�It is a proven fact that health has declined drastically since the onset of agriculture�� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #107

Universal health care is like democracy. GliderGuider Dec 2012 #109

�In practice it has problems�� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #113

We do have a tendency to perpetually increase complexity to deal with issues NoOneMan Dec 2012 #115

I'm fond of Systemantics OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #125

��only makes sense among a diseased population living with stress and nutritional deficiencies.� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #128

Well... NoOneMan Dec 2012 #130

"the neolithic farmers survived. The mesolithic hunter-gathers did not" NoOneMan Dec 2012 #111

Agriculture as �Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race�? � Anthropology 2.1 OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #124

I feel like Antrosio just rubbed feces into my cortex while urinating on Diamond's name NoOneMan Dec 2012 #126

Did he say the farmers were healthier? OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #127

He didn't have room to say much aside from the ad hominems NoOneMan Dec 2012 #129

�The links you posted are of the same study I posted earlier� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #135

My mistake NoOneMan Dec 2012 #141

I don�t go along with that OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #143

There was interbreeding as well NoOneMan Dec 2012 #144

�� shorter stature � agriculture coincided with a massive reduction to human health� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #145

"A decline of stature of historic populations has been used to indicate nutritional status." NoOneMan Dec 2012 #146

Just curious� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #147

I don't know enough about a "Japanese Diet" to answer that NoOneMan Dec 2012 #148

How convenient! OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #149

So they switched some definiciencies for others NoOneMan Dec 2012 #150

�This is the science. These are the facts.� Uh huh� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #151

Quick, send that link to the paleopathologists! NoOneMan Dec 2012 #152

This message was self-deleted by its author OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #153

Height, health, and development OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #154

Did it every occur to you that they are both correct? NoOneMan Dec 2012 #157

My key point is this OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #164

I think this is where we aren't seeing eye to eye NoOneMan Dec 2012 #165

Coevolution tama Dec 2012 #133

It is an interesting viewpoint OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #137

This has echoes of Dawkins' "Selfish Gene" hypothesis GliderGuider Dec 2012 #139

Its clear humans do those things for other species NoOneMan Dec 2012 #142

"Anthropomorphic selfish gene game theory..." tama Dec 2012 #170

Interesting idea NoOneMan Dec 2012 #171

As Socrates said: tama Dec 2012 #174

Yup. Thusly the term slave wages, FogerRox Dec 2012 #68

Well, it is safe to say you have never worked a farm AlexSatan Dec 2012 #155

I grew up on an organic farm NoOneMan Dec 2012 #158

your solution is simple backwoodsbob Dec 2012 #79

Are the 40 acres free? NoOneMan Dec 2012 #80

Thank you for making my point DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #103

Really? NoOneMan Dec 2012 #105

actually no DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #117

Agroforestry NoOneMan Dec 2012 #119

OK DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #120

There is a large variety of techniques & approaches NoOneMan Dec 2012 #122

Wow. Breathing air (necessary for life)==being on the Internet AlexSatan Dec 2012 #156

Interacting with an environment not of your choosing has no impact on the veracity of one's message NoOneMan Dec 2012 #159

You might want to look up "ad hominem attack" AlexSatan Dec 2012 #160

Yes, attacking me instead of what I am saying NoOneMan Dec 2012 #161

I mocked THE COMPARISON you made AlexSatan Dec 2012 #162

"It is just hypocritical to use a system you want to destroy" NoOneMan Dec 2012 #163

of course DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #167

Billions of people are malnourished and a billion face perpetual hunger already NoOneMan Dec 2012 #168

"You are a butthole" == ad hominem attack AlexSatan Dec 2012 #172

Ad Hominem Tu Quoque NoOneMan Dec 2012 #173

So you compare surgery and dentistry DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #166

I'm not sure where you are getting this comparison NoOneMan Dec 2012 #169

Almost all the health care advances are merely to negate the consequences of nutritional deficits, DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #59

"The emergence of agriculture may have exacerbated the dilemma..." NoOneMan Dec 2012 #62

hahahahaha DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #69

Rawest end of the forceps you mean? NoOneMan Dec 2012 #70

a few hundred years? DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #71

You want to talk about facts, but you ignore or laugh at: NoOneMan Dec 2012 #72

do provide some PROOF of point one DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #73

Head back to the "hahahaha" NoOneMan Dec 2012 #74

so DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #75

Academic studies cannot defeat civilization dogma NoOneMan Dec 2012 #76

Ummm... 2naSalit Dec 2012 #78

Higher mortality rates could be construed as such NoOneMan Dec 2012 #81

"One of the most profound changes to occur with the foraging to farming transition..... NoOneMan Dec 2012 #77

You forget one thing DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #102

Primitive medicine isn't blind intuition NoOneMan Dec 2012 #106

Without science, it is DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #116

Blind intuition or not, its really irrelevant outside of a specific context NoOneMan Dec 2012 #118

not quite DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #121

Let's please not do the dying in childbirth thing again NoOneMan Dec 2012 #123

the kind of "real" that matters is "stuff happening to me directly" - which is starting too phantom power Dec 2012 #3

Kill the economy and everyone lives happily ever after... hunter Dec 2012 #4

Socialism demands that you work for the "common good" NoOneMan Dec 2012 #8

Not much point raging against the Fates or the Furies. GliderGuider Dec 2012 #7

I couldn't agree more. Speck Tater Dec 2012 #11

And I disagree... 'survival of the fittest' cprise Dec 2012 #29

Well in that case I guess we have to pin our hopes on some alien life form Speck Tater Dec 2012 #30

You must be a blast at parties. n/t cprise Dec 2012 #31

I don't know. I never get invited! :-) nt Speck Tater Dec 2012 #32

That makes perfect sense. n/t cprise Dec 2012 #33

"'survival of the fittest' does not quite work under these conditions", we THINK. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #39

You're in E/E now... the context is ecology cprise Dec 2012 #91

You made an assertion. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #93

�Let's see what comes next.� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #13

That's a fundamental difference between us. GliderGuider Dec 2012 #14

This much is certain, we can affect our environment. (We�ve been doing it for millennia.) OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #15

"Can we really make them all that much worse at this point?" GliderGuider Dec 2012 #16

Which blind efforts are we actively making to improve our lot? OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #17

Well, let's take micro-loans. GliderGuider Dec 2012 #18

OK, let�s see� OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #19

I'll admit that my micro-loan example was a bit mischievous GliderGuider Dec 2012 #21

Certain annual hay plants tama Dec 2012 #134

First example doesn't work Iterate Dec 2012 #20

Yes on all counts, but another question comes up. GliderGuider Dec 2012 #23

It seems my skepticism about microfinance was misdirected, but not misplaced GliderGuider Dec 2012 #27

We can also tama Dec 2012 #82

Well, yes OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #84

Problem with science tama Dec 2012 #132

Sorry, I can�t see the word �objectivism� without thinking of Ayn Rand OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #140

There is no Sorcerer, there is just us. GliderGuider Dec 2012 #138

In addition, the system thrives on conflict NoOneMan Dec 2012 #24

Yes, "fighting the system" requires one to be part of it. GliderGuider Dec 2012 #26

GliderGuider, tama Dec 2012 #83

Mind your manners, young whippersnapper. GliderGuider Dec 2012 #87

middle age - been there, done that tama Dec 2012 #131

What a great comeback! GliderGuider Dec 2012 #136

Have you ever considered, NoOneMan Dec 2012 #25

Is this adressed specifically to GliderGuider? cprise Dec 2012 #34

Response to "I prefer to guide what comes next." NoOneMan Dec 2012 #35

No, not to me - but I agree with it completely. GliderGuider Dec 2012 #41