Environment & Energy

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)

15. Here's the problem as I see it

Mon Jan 14, 2013, 02:42 PM

Jan 2013

There is NO other option that would have gotten us the "bang for the buck" that coal, oil and gas did. Not over the last 150 years, and not today. At least if by "bang for the buck" we mean "maximize the power output available to civilization."

If civilization is a power maximizing system, then we had no other choice.

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Laying Blame: Population vs. Consumption [View all] GliderGuider Jan 2013 OP

The planet is not in lousy shape. Cary Jan 2013 #1

"Planet" is a shorthand for the biosphere. GliderGuider Jan 2013 #5

I meant only to highlight our own arrogance and stupdity as a species. Cary Jan 2013 #11

Oh yes. I know what we are. GliderGuider Jan 2013 #12

Ah, the big picture. wtmusic Jan 2013 #6

"The problem of industrialization" - not accepting your premise. wtmusic Jan 2013 #2

Well, there you go then! GliderGuider Jan 2013 #3

That's the best you can do? wtmusic Jan 2013 #4

I see no point in arguing - would I be able to change your opinion? GliderGuider Jan 2013 #7

Well, I try to keep an open mind. wtmusic Jan 2013 #9

Yeah, I got reactive in my reply there, sorry. GliderGuider Jan 2013 #10

"At least until some other source provides us with a better power return..." NoOneMan Jan 2013 #14

That feels a lot like the crux of the dilemma to me. nt GliderGuider Jan 2013 #17

If it makes you feel any better, GliderGuider Jan 2013 #8

Agree. We should have powered the industrial revolution with fairy powder NoOneMan Jan 2013 #13

Here's the problem as I see it GliderGuider Jan 2013 #15

If civilization is not, why are we here today and why can't we stop it? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #16

I think that's the thing most people don't understand. GliderGuider Jan 2013 #18

Oil powered the industrial revolution? wtmusic Jan 2013 #21

Sorry, I meant to type "fossil fuels" NoOneMan Jan 2013 #22

I know...oil, coal, nuclear, all that progress shit. wtmusic Jan 2013 #23

Define progress NoOneMan Jan 2013 #24

I'd have to pick "B" wtmusic Jan 2013 #25

I'm not sure how much we have made then (if any at all) NoOneMan Jan 2013 #27

Life expectancy is a pretty good indicator of the human condition wtmusic Jan 2013 #28

I don't really think that has a clear relationship to happiness and suffering. NoOneMan Jan 2013 #29

Google "life expectancy well-being" and you will find overwhelming evidence wtmusic Jan 2013 #30

I'm not really using an established western definition of "well-being" to be honest NoOneMan Jan 2013 #31

I'm using the UN's definition. wtmusic Jan 2013 #32

Are they the authority on human happiness? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #33

Please, define happiness however you like. wtmusic Jan 2013 #34

So your answer is "yes"? All our improved happiness (if we have any) is worth climate change? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #35

Yes, it's worth a certain amount. wtmusic Jan 2013 #36

Then screw climate change. Lets focus on promoting happiness NoOneMan Jan 2013 #37

I don't really need to point out the false dichotomy wtmusic Jan 2013 #38

There is no reason to not throw in the towel NoOneMan Jan 2013 #39

BTW, do you realize every environtmental disaster can now be written off? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #40

The problem is, happiness does not correlate with technology GliderGuider Jan 2013 #41

"I find that comforting" NoOneMan Jan 2013 #42

Our brains didn't evolve to assess risks far into the future. GliderGuider Jan 2013 #43

You've jumped the shark. wtmusic Jan 2013 #44

Actually I'm not going to tell anyone what does or doesn't make them happy. GliderGuider Jan 2013 #45

Population vs Consumption, ... CRH Jan 2013 #19

The Black Queen and leaky fuctions Iterate Jan 2013 #20

Both are killing the planet. (nt) NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #26