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wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
16. Automotive (hydrogen) fuel cells will never happen.
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 03:53 PM
Apr 2013

A hydrogen infrastructure will cost half a trillion dollars. Who will pay? Though oil companies want one (they have lots of filling stations and won't have much to sell in them), they won't take the risk when no one's buying the vehicles. No one will buy the vehicles without the stations. Classic chicken/egg, it's all oil company hype.

I have my own filling station - easy, convenient, clean, cheap.



I swear, some people enjoy changing oil and paying more than $.04 mile - wouldn't dream of bursting their bubble. But I've been watching detractors' arguments fall to technology for five years (one thing it won't do: climb a 20% grade in the winter for 30 miles with the heater on, while towing a boat. Really sucks at that. ). The same thing happened with hybrids ten years ago, and EVs are doing better at the two-year mark than hybrids were.

From Joe Romm, the author of The Hype About Hydrogen:

"As I’ve said for a decade now, hydrogen fuel cells are not going to be a significant, cost-effective CO2 reducer. In a 2005 journal article, “The car and fuel of the future,” I noted that:

Using fuel cell vehicles and hydrogen from zero-carbon sources such as renewable power or nuclear energy has a cost of avoided carbon dioxide of more than $600 a metric ton, which is more than a factor of ten higher than most other strategies being considered today….

A 2013 study by independent research and advisory firm Lux Research finds that despite billions in research and development spent in the past decade, “The dream of a hydrogen economy envisioned for decades by politicians, economists, and environmentalists is no nearer, with hydrogen fuel cells turning a modest $3 billion market of about 5.9 GW in 2030.”

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/04/05/1422411/study-hobbled-by-high-cost-hydrogen-fuel-cells-will-be-a-modest-3-billion-market-in-2030/

Fuel cells are light years behind EVs:

"Cost reduction over a ramp-up period of about 20 years is needed in order for PEM fuel cells to compete with current market technologies, including gasoline internal combustion engines."

Meyers, Jeremy P. "Getting Back Into Gear: Fuel Cell Development After the Hype".
The Electrochemical Society Interface, Winter 2008, pp. 36–39, accessed August 7, 2011

Hydrogen is messy, expensive, and dangerous, and when you include cooling to 33K or compression to 800 bar energy efficiency is pathetic.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Very interesting. A major fallacy in the energy world is that the same technology can BlueStreak Apr 2013 #1
“… Some nitwits have talked about truly hair-brained schemes …” OKIsItJustMe Apr 2013 #2
Why would I want to own an electric car if the power company could BlueStreak Apr 2013 #3
While I’m skeptical of V2G I believe your estimation is off OKIsItJustMe Apr 2013 #4
In that example, I believe they ran the gas engine BlueStreak Apr 2013 #5
I don’t mean to suggest that people should do this themselves OKIsItJustMe Apr 2013 #6
"Drain EVs" dramatically oversimplifies the proposal. FBaggins Apr 2013 #7
Regarding the third area BlueStreak Apr 2013 #8
No... I mean actual supply/demand spikes. FBaggins Apr 2013 #9
V2G efficiency losses are at least 20% wtmusic Apr 2013 #11
Did you read the reply? FBaggins Apr 2013 #12
Or, put another way, it’s about 80% efficient OKIsItJustMe Apr 2013 #15
Do you like green eggs and ham? (Why?) wtmusic Apr 2013 #18
Maybe I don't understand the leveling problem BlueStreak Apr 2013 #14
Agree on V2G, fuel cells have been a few years away for 20 years wtmusic Apr 2013 #10
EVs are way under 1% of the market BlueStreak Apr 2013 #13
Automotive (hydrogen) fuel cells will never happen. wtmusic Apr 2013 #16
They’re already here OKIsItJustMe Apr 2013 #17
They've been "here" for twenty years. wtmusic Apr 2013 #19
No, they”re being assembled now. OKIsItJustMe Apr 2013 #20
They're selling them to fleets wtmusic Apr 2013 #21
Um… perhaps they want an actual clean technology OKIsItJustMe Apr 2013 #22
Compressed H2 reformed from natural gas is significantly more efficient used in an FCV wtmusic Apr 2013 #27
Yeah, I didn’t want to overstate the case OKIsItJustMe Apr 2013 #32
Let's find out. wtmusic Apr 2013 #35
“Apparently the difference has to do with electricity used in the reforming process.” OKIsItJustMe Apr 2013 #36
From a manufacturer who's hyping their FCV and doesn't offer a BEV. wtmusic Apr 2013 #37
Now, why do you suppose he would be irrationally attracted to FCEV’s? OKIsItJustMe Apr 2013 #38
For the same reason VW was attracted to them? wtmusic Apr 2013 #39
I guess we’ll see OKIsItJustMe Apr 2013 #40
In situ Hydrogen generation (talk about a political football) BlueStreak Apr 2013 #24
You could generate your own hydrogen from a solar array wtmusic Apr 2013 #25
That may all be true. What it boils down is that both camps are hoping for a miracle BlueStreak Apr 2013 #26
There are 50,000 people in the U.S. driving cars which you say are not "anywhere close" wtmusic Apr 2013 #28
What do you drive? BlueStreak Apr 2013 #30
The one huge disadvantage of EVs BlueStreak Apr 2013 #29
Recharging is really not a problem. wtmusic Apr 2013 #31
For me, that would work as a SECOND car if it had twice the range BlueStreak Apr 2013 #34
Pressurization may not be the challenge you imagine OKIsItJustMe Apr 2013 #33
Think of the market for ... oldhippie Apr 2013 #23
The name of the team leader might be familiar to some longtime EE readers kristopher Apr 2013 #41
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