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wercal

(1,370 posts)
27. Ethanol
Thu Jun 6, 2013, 03:28 PM
Jun 2013

It used to enjoy the Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit, until this year I believe. Here is a link about it, from the ethanol industry:

http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles/9765/ending-the-century-of-subsidies

And, underlying all corn production in this country is a baseline of agricultural subsidy that will not go away soon.

So it is subsidized...and it can be argued that oil drilling is subsidized through below market rate leases of federal lands...so they are both in the same boat - subsidized. Ethanol does not stand unique among its peer fuels as unsubsidized at all.

Corn left in silos? For starters, not all corn can be used for ethanol...but that's a different story. To me it isn't a matter of acreage available for food production...its a matter of water available for corn production. Much on Kansas and Nebraska rely on a very finite underground water resource for irrigation, which diminishes every year. Some water rights were involuntarily forfeited last year. We need to have a conversation about the issues surrounding planting more and more land in corn...and if we don't have it, mother nature will eventually force our hand.

And the water isn't just involved in the growing of corn...it is an important part of the ethanol production process. I was part of an application for water right to build an ethanol plant...and we didn't get it.

You made an interesting statement about reducing handouts to farmers for growing nothing. There was a short film on PBS a few years ago, where two college kids go to Iowa, lease an acre of land, borrow equipment, lose money on their crop, and get paid for their loss through a government insurance program. They interviewed some high ranking official in Iowa about corn subsidies...and he made the exact same point tha you did. The argument is, why pay farmers to not grow food when you can do the opposite - pay them to actually grow food. It sounds good in theory...although it ignores one purpose of leaving lands fallow. Its not just to avoid radical price drops...its also to avoid Dustbowl 2.0.

I live in Kansas. I tried to get zoning and water right for an ethanol plant...right before the bottom fell out of the industry. We were in for a tough fight anyway, but market conditions put a solid stop to our plans. And that's where we sit today - once ethanol production reachd any type of scale, the price of corn went up, and the margins are too dangerously thin for another plant to get built anywhere around me.

I want ethanol to work - I really do. An, I believe blending 5% into fuels 'takes the edge off' of the impact of mideast politics on fuel prices. And having an infrastructure in place that could offset an oil embargo for instance, would be great insurance. But, there is a cost. We realistically should be taking land out of corn production on Kansas - not the reverse (for water reasons). And the region really has not enjoyed great profit from ethanol. It does not easily transport in pipelines, and is primarily trucked...meaning that the vast majority of ethanol produced in my state will be consumed in my state - its not like its being sold to a worldwide market. The only positive impact we have had is the higher corn prices in general, for our sales of the dry grain product abroad.

Here in Kansas, it has been a mixed bag of success and failure. The successes consist of 4 megaplants, which are not at all coop owned. The owners of these facilities are now in the process of trying to buy failed smaller plants (mostly coop) for pennies on the dollar, to open back up.

Ethanol will continue to be a presence here...but its boom days are over (one of the large plants is actually name 'bonanza' as an homage to the boom days). And it certainly won't be scaled up to any degree in the near future.


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So they found out how to make gas? RobertEarl Jun 2013 #1
You can bet that if there was a buck to be made from algae today, they'd be making it. GliderGuider Jun 2013 #3
Heh RobertEarl Jun 2013 #4
I'm not greenwashing Exxon. I know exactly what they are. GliderGuider Jun 2013 #8
Greenwashing was not the correct term RobertEarl Jun 2013 #9
We're cool then. GliderGuider Jun 2013 #11
True ....... oldhippie Jun 2013 #16
Yes, of course RobertEarl Jun 2013 #19
And this RobertEarl Jun 2013 #20
As long as it makes you feel good ..... oldhippie Jun 2013 #26
You do this every time RobertEarl Jun 2013 #29
I'm sorry ...... oldhippie Jun 2013 #30
Exxon is just a business. Laelth Jun 2013 #12
This message was self-deleted by its author GliderGuider Jun 2013 #13
That's a clear and sane position. GliderGuider Jun 2013 #14
No argument from me, really. Laelth Jun 2013 #18
alarming ignorance pervasive poopfuel Jun 2013 #15
I very much appreciate your interest in educating me. Laelth Jun 2013 #17
you're welcome. Start with the website alcoholcanbeagas.com, plenty to see there. Links, etc poopfuel Jun 2013 #23
Ethanol wercal Jun 2013 #27
good post poopfuel Jun 2013 #41
That we have such difficulty maintaining our energy structures is revealing Scootaloo Jun 2013 #2
Sure we are. RobertEarl Jun 2013 #5
It's not magic Scootaloo Jun 2013 #7
I smell a paid blogger here poopfuel Jun 2013 #24
Oh please... NickB79 Jun 2013 #28
Beg pardon? Scootaloo Jun 2013 #31
Sorry but you're wrong kristopher Jun 2013 #32
Energy and carbon are two different things Scootaloo Jun 2013 #33
It's possible, but difficult, to have a closed carbon cycle. GliderGuider Jun 2013 #34
Are you for real? kristopher Jun 2013 #35
Yes, I am Scootaloo Jun 2013 #36
You don't have a point - you're wrong. kristopher Jun 2013 #37
The part where you carry the two, I suppose Scootaloo Jun 2013 #38
Not a problem kristopher Jun 2013 #40
You'd figure that they would jump on this. Indyfan53 Jun 2013 #6
They will RobertEarl Jun 2013 #10
I saw a presentation by Matt Simmons a few yrs. back, w. a sentence that nailed it . . . hatrack Jun 2013 #22
Exactly. n/t poopfuel Jun 2013 #25
I predict algae fuel manufacturing will find its sustainable place in agriculture kristopher Jun 2013 #21
Here is more information from Bloomberg Socialistlemur Jun 2013 #39
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