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GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
34. It's possible, but difficult, to have a closed carbon cycle.
Thu Jun 6, 2013, 11:33 PM
Jun 2013

The carbon is an energy carrier. the important questions are where the carbon in the fuel comes from and where all energy comes from. The only totally carbon neutral process would be if all the carbon comes from either atmospheric carbon or short-term storage like soil. Plus all the energy used - to grow the biomass, process it and transport the fuel - must come from either direct or indirect solar sources like sunlight, or wind or tidal electricity.

It's possible (though difficult in practice) to do this without violating the second law, because it's permissible to lose some of the embodied solar energy to entropy. What's not permissible is to introduce any carbon from long-term stores like fossil fuels. That is very difficult and expensive in practice, so there is usually some degree of "marketing imprecision" in the carbon accounting.

One of the biggest problems, the one we saw with corn ethanol, is the question of where one draws the system boundaries for carbon accounting purposes. If they're tight enough it makes the accounting much more attractive - for instance if you don't count the source of the electricity used to run the processing plant, the fuel in the delivery trucks, or the embedded carbon in the equipment due to its manufacture. If you draw the boundary around just the growing and harvesting, and then compare that carbon to the the carbon in the finished product, a lot of inconveniences just disappear from view.

I think it's safe to say that there will be no carbon truly neutral biofuels in the near or medium term.

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So they found out how to make gas? RobertEarl Jun 2013 #1
You can bet that if there was a buck to be made from algae today, they'd be making it. GliderGuider Jun 2013 #3
Heh RobertEarl Jun 2013 #4
I'm not greenwashing Exxon. I know exactly what they are. GliderGuider Jun 2013 #8
Greenwashing was not the correct term RobertEarl Jun 2013 #9
We're cool then. GliderGuider Jun 2013 #11
True ....... oldhippie Jun 2013 #16
Yes, of course RobertEarl Jun 2013 #19
And this RobertEarl Jun 2013 #20
As long as it makes you feel good ..... oldhippie Jun 2013 #26
You do this every time RobertEarl Jun 2013 #29
I'm sorry ...... oldhippie Jun 2013 #30
Exxon is just a business. Laelth Jun 2013 #12
This message was self-deleted by its author GliderGuider Jun 2013 #13
That's a clear and sane position. GliderGuider Jun 2013 #14
No argument from me, really. Laelth Jun 2013 #18
alarming ignorance pervasive poopfuel Jun 2013 #15
I very much appreciate your interest in educating me. Laelth Jun 2013 #17
you're welcome. Start with the website alcoholcanbeagas.com, plenty to see there. Links, etc poopfuel Jun 2013 #23
Ethanol wercal Jun 2013 #27
good post poopfuel Jun 2013 #41
That we have such difficulty maintaining our energy structures is revealing Scootaloo Jun 2013 #2
Sure we are. RobertEarl Jun 2013 #5
It's not magic Scootaloo Jun 2013 #7
I smell a paid blogger here poopfuel Jun 2013 #24
Oh please... NickB79 Jun 2013 #28
Beg pardon? Scootaloo Jun 2013 #31
Sorry but you're wrong kristopher Jun 2013 #32
Energy and carbon are two different things Scootaloo Jun 2013 #33
It's possible, but difficult, to have a closed carbon cycle. GliderGuider Jun 2013 #34
Are you for real? kristopher Jun 2013 #35
Yes, I am Scootaloo Jun 2013 #36
You don't have a point - you're wrong. kristopher Jun 2013 #37
The part where you carry the two, I suppose Scootaloo Jun 2013 #38
Not a problem kristopher Jun 2013 #40
You'd figure that they would jump on this. Indyfan53 Jun 2013 #6
They will RobertEarl Jun 2013 #10
I saw a presentation by Matt Simmons a few yrs. back, w. a sentence that nailed it . . . hatrack Jun 2013 #22
Exactly. n/t poopfuel Jun 2013 #25
I predict algae fuel manufacturing will find its sustainable place in agriculture kristopher Jun 2013 #21
Here is more information from Bloomberg Socialistlemur Jun 2013 #39
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