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Environment & Energy
In reply to the discussion: San Onofre shutdown will mean tight electricity supplies [View all]kristopher
(29,798 posts)112. If nuclear is reliable why are we having this conversation?
That deals with your snarky comment at the end of your OP. Now let's dispose of the false claims in the OP itself.
Without SONGS, California still has more than enough capacity to meet their needs:
In order to keep the lights on, the ISO needs to have more generation available than consumers are expected to use. This is known as a reserve margin, and the California Public Utilities Commission requires the utilities to plan for a 15% cushion. And the state already has more power plants than we need to pass that test. This summer, the ISO expects to easily exceed that margin under normal conditions, and to still avoid rolling blackouts even under extreme conditions (like if a lot of power plants go down unexpectedly at the same time customers demand is unusually high).

Source: ISO (Note: SP 26 and NP 26 are roughly Southern and Northern California, respectively)
Source: ISO (Note: SP 26 and NP 26 are roughly Southern and Northern California, respectively)
As you can see the problem presented by the shutdown isn't having enough capacity to meet demand.
So why, in 2012 when SO shut down, did they need to pull 2 retired natgas generators (450MW) out of retirement in nearby Huntington Beach?
Blame it on a grid designed around centralized generation. The gaping hole in the system left by the shutdown of a large centralized source of generation causes a lot of problems besides the loss of ability to meet demand.
...the grid needs the voltage support SONGS used to provide.
Since a major part of the Southern California electric grid was built around SONGS, it is a lot harder for the transmission grid to remain stable without the plant operating and providing that voltage support. This all gets very technical fast, but the important thing to know is that there are different ways to provide voltage support (and they dont all require burning fossil fuels at a power plant). So even though one might expect the state to fill the hole left by SONGS with more dirty power plants, this year the state is taking a better and cleaner approach.
Since a major part of the Southern California electric grid was built around SONGS, it is a lot harder for the transmission grid to remain stable without the plant operating and providing that voltage support. This all gets very technical fast, but the important thing to know is that there are different ways to provide voltage support (and they dont all require burning fossil fuels at a power plant). So even though one might expect the state to fill the hole left by SONGS with more dirty power plants, this year the state is taking a better and cleaner approach.
So what happens now?
...(Huntington Beach - k) is instead being converted into synchronous condensers, which provide voltage support without onsite emissions. (The synchronous condensers operate like electric motors and use a small amount of energy from the grid in the process.) Other emissions-free efforts to fill the hole left by SONGS include installation of capacitors and upgrades to a local transmission line so that if the line has a problem, only part of it goes down instead of the whole thing.
<snip>
The Public Utilities Commission should continue to build on the great start made this year by requiring utilities to fill the gap with efficient and clean resources by:
<snip>
The Public Utilities Commission should continue to build on the great start made this year by requiring utilities to fill the gap with efficient and clean resources by:
making the electric grid more resilient through transmission system upgrades;
adding renewable resources in different geographic regions to take advantage of the different times when theyre available; and
avoiding new generation through more aggressive efforts to help customers:
improve the efficiency of their homes and businesses;
reduce consumption during costly peak periods; and
use clean on-site generation like solar panels.
Information courtesy of the wonderful folks at the Natural Resources Defense Council.
http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/dwang/replacing_songs.html
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Yeah. Because we have barely scratched the surface of conservation efforts, which
kestrel91316
Jun 2013
#12
I don't know if I would associate 'reliable base load' and San Onofre...
AtheistCrusader
Jun 2013
#2
And how much of a hole in the grid when a few wind turbines overspeed and break?
AtheistCrusader
Jun 2013
#4
I don't think I've ever heard of doldrums affecting an entire state grid.
AtheistCrusader
Jun 2013
#7
Hell, I don't think the wind EVER dies down in the Tehachapi Pass or out in the desert........
kestrel91316
Jun 2013
#10
All it takes is a little intense heat in California and the winds begin to blow
CreekDog
Jun 2013
#62
the irony is that you want us to think of wind and solar as some scheming "industry"
CreekDog
Jun 2013
#89
"wind turbines are far less carbon intensive than the nuclear fuel cycle" WRONG
wtmusic
Jun 2013
#39
California has the highest geothermal production capacity in the nation.
AtheistCrusader
Jun 2013
#75
The 1995 Hanshin quake in Kobe was a strike-slip and even though only a 7.2, produced
AtheistCrusader
Jun 2013
#24
The Fukushima Dai-ichi sea wall was considered adequate by some, until it wasn't.
AtheistCrusader
Jun 2013
#31
There have been, and there is risk of tsunami much taller than 14' hitting the west coast.
AtheistCrusader
Jun 2013
#71
Actually, you and PamW are all arguing peculiarly similar things, which are misleading
CreekDog
Jun 2013
#81
They're similar points (since they both correct the same error)... but they aren't 1 or 2
FBaggins
Jun 2013
#82
The simple fact is PamW said specifically that there aren't subduction zones off California --false
CreekDog
Jun 2013
#83
Actually, I pointed out far upthread that the Cocos/Pacific plate fault can produce these tsunami.
AtheistCrusader
Jun 2013
#84
Our understanding of how faults and quakes work in the Pacific is evolving to this day.
AtheistCrusader
Jun 2013
#91
Certainly... but that returns us to the Yellowstone example and the first point
FBaggins
Jun 2013
#92
you're blaming Greenpeace supporters for the shutdown of San Onofre? did they f--- up the plant?
CreekDog
Jun 2013
#61
Hey wtmusic, San Onofre is not "reliable baseload" when it's been off for 1.5 years
CreekDog
Jun 2013
#90