Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

PamW

(1,825 posts)
20. OH BROTHER!!! - now LAME excuses...
Tue Jul 30, 2013, 10:27 AM
Jul 2013

kristopher,

I understand the potential of "reactive power"; as from V2G to COLLAPSE our power grid as Professor Sauer explains in his paper:

http://www.pserc.wisc.edu/.../special.../Sauer_Reactive_Power_Sep_2003.pdf?

starting on page 3 under the heading; How is reactive power related to the problem of voltage collapse, and that, quoting:

While there are "undervoltage relays", there are no relays in the system to directly sense the problem that the voltage is about to collapse

This threat to make the electric power grid more fragile and less robust has grown like topsy.

First, you add unreliable and intermittent non-dispatchable renewable power generators. In order to compensate for the failings and deficiencies of the non-dispatchable renewables; you have to add backup energy storage, as in terms of the V2G inverters. But the V2G inverters have their own failings and deficiencies in that they introduce "reactive power" and threaten voltage collapse. So the reactive power has to be mitigated by other add-on, and then the deficiencies of those must be addressed...

Rather than polluting a river, and then doing something to clean it, which has undesirable side effects, which must be cleaned up; and then there's the cleanup of the cleanup of the cleanup....; many environmentalists ask, "Why not just stop the original pollution?" Get rid of the stuff that creates the original problem.

I know very well the potential role of batteries; I see their potential of turning the electric power grid of the USA, one of the technical marvels of the 20th century, into a fragile and less robust power grid which more resembles the power grid of some 3rd world country.

That's the potential I see if we follow the ill-founded dreams of people who don't know the science behind the electric grid.

PamW

Beneby makes an excellent point about 'discreet' customers cprise Jul 2013 #1
I assume he meant "discrete". BlueStreak Jul 2013 #15
jpak doesn't understand the issue PamW Jul 2013 #2
jpak understands the issue well kristopher Jul 2013 #4
Litany of scientific ERRORS by kristopher PamW Jul 2013 #9
Wow. caraher Jul 2013 #33
Yes, isn't it though? kristopher Jul 2013 #42
Well said. wercal Jul 2013 #26
WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! jpak Jul 2013 #43
Right, variable renewables are not a significant technical hurdle kristopher Jul 2013 #3
100% WRONG as ALWAYS PamW Jul 2013 #5
More ravings? kristopher Jul 2013 #6
BALONEY!!! 100% WRONG AGAIN!! PamW Jul 2013 #10
You spend 8 paragraphs BSing then 3 paragraphs admitting I'm right kristopher Jul 2013 #11
More BALONEY!!! PamW Jul 2013 #12
Only you talk of an all wind/all solar/or all solar wind grid. kristopher Jul 2013 #13
100% WRONG as ALWAYS PamW Jul 2013 #14
Wow, you really got me. kristopher Jul 2013 #18
OH BROTHER!!! - now LAME excuses... PamW Jul 2013 #20
Greg/Pam - Apparently you can't read kristopher Jul 2013 #21
I can READ!! PamW Jul 2013 #23
An litany of evolving mistakes, misunderstandings ... kristopher Jul 2013 #24
Again, .... oldhippie Jul 2013 #25
Sp Greg/Pam had to call in the peanut gallery again, huh? kristopher Jul 2013 #31
Why are you arguing about a theoretical problem that could only possibly occur BlueStreak Jul 2013 #16
Because he's dedicated himself to harassing me. kristopher Jul 2013 #19
This stuff is about politics, not about technology or science BlueStreak Jul 2013 #22
"no compelling reason ever to build (or extend) any nuclear or coal plant -- ever" kristopher Jul 2013 #44
It really is remarkable, yet completely missed (or ignored) by so many BlueStreak Jul 2013 #46
You mention V2G wercal Jul 2013 #28
It is an economic benefit to the EV owner kristopher Jul 2013 #30
I don't like the numbers wercal Jul 2013 #32
No, not time of day pricing kristopher Jul 2013 #34
You need more data and less wishful thinking wercal Jul 2013 #35
I'll take the first one FBaggins Jul 2013 #36
Well that's an entirely different concept that has been brought up here before wercal Jul 2013 #38
Uh-oh, kris is not going to like ..... oldhippie Jul 2013 #37
Ready for blast-off wercal Jul 2013 #39
You say "V2G is really a turn off for me" kristopher Jul 2013 #40
I'm going to borrow a phrase from my prior post: wercal Jul 2013 #45
That will make manufacturer warranties very "interesting" BlueStreak Jul 2013 #47
Interesting question kristopher Jul 2013 #48
The whole V2G thing makes absolutely no sense to me BlueStreak Jul 2013 #49
What do you think they use the batteries for? kristopher Jul 2013 #50
You really have to start backing up what you say wercal Jul 2013 #51
Right, the numbers are vast BlueStreak Jul 2013 #55
I believe elevating water is being used in Portugal right now wercal Jul 2013 #62
Hydrogen efficiency BlueStreak Jul 2013 #63
I believe the efficiency is currently 40%... wercal Jul 2013 #64
The economics of storage systems get better as we shift to intermittent sources BlueStreak Jul 2013 #65
They aren't going to pay me enough for that to make any sense BlueStreak Jul 2013 #53
Ah, I see you are actually a twin kristopher Jul 2013 #54
What?? BlueStreak Jul 2013 #56
Bluestreak and I most certainly are not the same wercal Jul 2013 #57
Be careful who you counsel ..... oldhippie Jul 2013 #58
Well I've tried to be polite... wercal Jul 2013 #59
Yes you have oldhippie Jul 2013 #60
Ah...I see wercal Jul 2013 #61
We have a winner wercal Jul 2013 #52
the issue is price quadrature Jul 2013 #7
That's true. It has been modeled in detail. kristopher Jul 2013 #8
And you don't have to stop at 100% BlueStreak Jul 2013 #17
In fact you can't FBaggins Jul 2013 #27
That 300% is a nonsense number, for a case that will never exist in the real world BlueStreak Jul 2013 #29
I agree wholeheartedly with all but the last sentence of your post kristopher Jul 2013 #41
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Environment & Energy»Intermittency Of Renewabl...»Reply #20