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kristopher

(29,798 posts)
34. No, not time of day pricing
Tue Jul 30, 2013, 03:21 PM
Jul 2013

It is the provision of ancillary services that is where the money is.

Since the time of day assumption you've taken isn't applicable, we can skip over that, but to address a couple of other questions:

The utility could and will buy storage. But the availability of a huge existing base of storage can't be ignored. The way the economics work is that the consumer pays for a car for transportation and makes the economic valuation on that basis alone.
But the batteries are expected to outlive the rest of the auto.
The use that the utility puts the battery to one where only a little is taken, there wouldn't be cases where deep discharges occur.
That means wear and tear isn't nearly what you might imagine.
When you stack that up against the value of ancillary services, the owner can come out (depending on assumptions) between $1500-$3500 per year to the good IIRC (I haven't read those research papers in several years).
Some survey work has been done where the numbers were presented and the extra layer of financial benefit that the EV owner can realize is generally very attractive.
The numbers have been run by several entities from utilities like PG&E and grid operator PJM to battery makers, electric car companies, NREL researchers and academic researchers.
You might try googling "Willet Kempton V2G" the whole thing is his idea and he offers most of his published papers on his University of Delaware website.

The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) is the regulatory body responsible for the operational security of the nation's energy delivery systems. They are 110% behind widespread adoption of V2G.


Beneby makes an excellent point about 'discreet' customers cprise Jul 2013 #1
I assume he meant "discrete". BlueStreak Jul 2013 #15
jpak doesn't understand the issue PamW Jul 2013 #2
jpak understands the issue well kristopher Jul 2013 #4
Litany of scientific ERRORS by kristopher PamW Jul 2013 #9
Wow. caraher Jul 2013 #33
Yes, isn't it though? kristopher Jul 2013 #42
Well said. wercal Jul 2013 #26
WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! jpak Jul 2013 #43
Right, variable renewables are not a significant technical hurdle kristopher Jul 2013 #3
100% WRONG as ALWAYS PamW Jul 2013 #5
More ravings? kristopher Jul 2013 #6
BALONEY!!! 100% WRONG AGAIN!! PamW Jul 2013 #10
You spend 8 paragraphs BSing then 3 paragraphs admitting I'm right kristopher Jul 2013 #11
More BALONEY!!! PamW Jul 2013 #12
Only you talk of an all wind/all solar/or all solar wind grid. kristopher Jul 2013 #13
100% WRONG as ALWAYS PamW Jul 2013 #14
Wow, you really got me. kristopher Jul 2013 #18
OH BROTHER!!! - now LAME excuses... PamW Jul 2013 #20
Greg/Pam - Apparently you can't read kristopher Jul 2013 #21
I can READ!! PamW Jul 2013 #23
An litany of evolving mistakes, misunderstandings ... kristopher Jul 2013 #24
Again, .... oldhippie Jul 2013 #25
Sp Greg/Pam had to call in the peanut gallery again, huh? kristopher Jul 2013 #31
Why are you arguing about a theoretical problem that could only possibly occur BlueStreak Jul 2013 #16
Because he's dedicated himself to harassing me. kristopher Jul 2013 #19
This stuff is about politics, not about technology or science BlueStreak Jul 2013 #22
"no compelling reason ever to build (or extend) any nuclear or coal plant -- ever" kristopher Jul 2013 #44
It really is remarkable, yet completely missed (or ignored) by so many BlueStreak Jul 2013 #46
You mention V2G wercal Jul 2013 #28
It is an economic benefit to the EV owner kristopher Jul 2013 #30
I don't like the numbers wercal Jul 2013 #32
No, not time of day pricing kristopher Jul 2013 #34
You need more data and less wishful thinking wercal Jul 2013 #35
I'll take the first one FBaggins Jul 2013 #36
Well that's an entirely different concept that has been brought up here before wercal Jul 2013 #38
Uh-oh, kris is not going to like ..... oldhippie Jul 2013 #37
Ready for blast-off wercal Jul 2013 #39
You say "V2G is really a turn off for me" kristopher Jul 2013 #40
I'm going to borrow a phrase from my prior post: wercal Jul 2013 #45
That will make manufacturer warranties very "interesting" BlueStreak Jul 2013 #47
Interesting question kristopher Jul 2013 #48
The whole V2G thing makes absolutely no sense to me BlueStreak Jul 2013 #49
What do you think they use the batteries for? kristopher Jul 2013 #50
You really have to start backing up what you say wercal Jul 2013 #51
Right, the numbers are vast BlueStreak Jul 2013 #55
I believe elevating water is being used in Portugal right now wercal Jul 2013 #62
Hydrogen efficiency BlueStreak Jul 2013 #63
I believe the efficiency is currently 40%... wercal Jul 2013 #64
The economics of storage systems get better as we shift to intermittent sources BlueStreak Jul 2013 #65
They aren't going to pay me enough for that to make any sense BlueStreak Jul 2013 #53
Ah, I see you are actually a twin kristopher Jul 2013 #54
What?? BlueStreak Jul 2013 #56
Bluestreak and I most certainly are not the same wercal Jul 2013 #57
Be careful who you counsel ..... oldhippie Jul 2013 #58
Well I've tried to be polite... wercal Jul 2013 #59
Yes you have oldhippie Jul 2013 #60
Ah...I see wercal Jul 2013 #61
We have a winner wercal Jul 2013 #52
the issue is price quadrature Jul 2013 #7
That's true. It has been modeled in detail. kristopher Jul 2013 #8
And you don't have to stop at 100% BlueStreak Jul 2013 #17
In fact you can't FBaggins Jul 2013 #27
That 300% is a nonsense number, for a case that will never exist in the real world BlueStreak Jul 2013 #29
I agree wholeheartedly with all but the last sentence of your post kristopher Jul 2013 #41
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