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Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
41. If you were working at EPA or Dept of Energy you would be falling over Oil industry lobbyists all
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 03:51 PM
Sep 2013

time. This is a rather big subject which really deserves a thread of its own but I'll give you a couple links to articles in the press that touch on this:

Big Oil's Big Stall on Ethanol - BusinessWeek

http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2007-09-30/big-oils-big-stall-on-ethanol

Those who criticize the industry's stance see it as reminiscent of its attempts to discredit the theory that human use of fossil fuels has caused global warming. Mark N. Cooper, research director at the Consumer Federation of America, authored a recent paper characterizing the situation as "Big Oil's war on ethanol." The industry, he writes, "reacted aggressively against the expansion of ethanol production, suggesting that it perceives the growth of biofuels as an independent, competitive threat to its market power in refining and gasoline marketing."

The industry collects the subsidies, but didn't lobby for them—Congress created them to encourage a larger ethanol market. While oil reps say they aren't anti-ethanol, they are candid about disliking E85. Says Al Mannato of the American Petroleum Institute (API), the chief trade group for oil and natural-gas companies: "We think [ethanol] makes an effective additive to gasoline but that it doesn't work well as an alternative fuel. And we don't think the marketplace wants E85."

One prong in the oil industry's strategy is an anti-ethanol information campaign. In June the API released a study it commissioned from research firm Global Insight Inc. The report concludes that consumers will be "losers" in the runup to Congress' target of 35 billion gallons of biofuel by 2017 because, it forecasts, they'll pay $12 billion-plus a year more for food as corn prices rise to meet ethanol demand. The conclusions are far from universally accepted, but they have been picked up and promoted by anti-ethanol groups like the Coalition for Balanced Food & Fuel Policy, made up of the major beef, dairy, and poultry lobbies. Global Insight spokesman Jim Dorsey says the funding didn't influence the findings: "We don't have a dog in this hunt."



Academia plays a role as well. There is perhaps no one more hostile to ethanol than Tad W. Patzek, a geo-engineering professor at the University of California at Berkeley. A former Shell petroleum engineer, Patzek co-founded the UC Oil Consortium, which studies engineering methods for getting oil out of the ground. It counts BP (BP), Chevron USA, (CVX) Mobil USA, and Shell (RDS) among its funders. A widely cited 2005 paper by Patzek and Cornell University professor David Pimentel concluded that ethanol takes 29% more energy to produce than it supplies—the most severe indictment of the biofuel. Michael Wang, vehicle and fuel-systems analyst at the Energy Dept.'s Argonne National Laboratory, says among several flaws in the study is the use of old data and the overestimation of corn farm energy use by 34%. Pimentel defends the study. In a recent update, he and Patzek hiked the estimate of ethanol's energy deficit to 43%.

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..NOTE: Pimentel and Patzek's 'studies' have been roundly debunked and they have been exposed as frauds by legitimate researchers (Bruce Dale, Michigan State University, Michael Wang, Argonne National Laboratory - U.S. Dept of Energy, to name a couple) but they created a lot of confusion which still exists in the minds of those lacking the time of inclination to look into this fairly technical issue. Rational people know that Ethanol has a positive energy balance (i.e. positive net energy gain) but the disinformation continues.

Big Oil vs Ethanol - Consumer Federation of America

http://www.consumerfed.org/elements/www.consumerfed.org/file/Ethanol.pdf


The oil industry threats to offset increases in ethanol production with cutbacks in
refinery expansion plans and policies to restrict ethanol distribution are serious and
demonstrate their unchallenged market power and their ability to limit competition which
could help consumers obtain lower prices for gasoline and diesel fuel. Refining and
wholesale markets have become so highly concentrated as a result of the merger wave of the
past decade that the companies do not behave in a competitive fashion.6 Eighty percent of
refining markets and 90 percent of wholesale markets in America are concentrated, according
to the Guidelines used by the Department of Justice (DOJ) and the Federal Trade Commission
(FTC).7 Big Oil has the market power to impede the growth of ethanol or to make the
consumer pay the price in the Washington D.C. and on Main Street.

THE REFINERY BOTTLENECK

The problem that regulators and policy analysts have been exploring in the refining
sector for over half a decade has finally broken into the popular press. The problem in the
refining sector was succinctly summarized in the New York Times

Refineries are a choke point in the nation’s supply of fuel. Because they have
not invested enough in refineries to increase gasoline supplies, oil companies
have been unable to meet the country’s growing demand in recent years. That
has forced them to rely on imports, which are more expensive than fuel refined
domestically…

Until the mid-1990s, the United States had significant spare refining capacity.
But because of consolidation in the industry, the number of refineries decline
while unprofitable operations were shut. As demand, grew however, and
capacity remained flat, the picture changed. In recent years, refineries in the
United States have been running at or close to full capacity.

Domestic refineries can now process about 17.5 million barrels of crude oil
each day, much of it imported. But with consumption no close to about 21
million barrels a day, more imports of refined products are also needed.


~~
~~

The Department of Energy also noted that price setting was taking place in the tight
U.S. market. Things have gotten so bad in the U.S. gasoline market that even the Energy
Information Administration, in one of its weekly reports recognized that the tight U.S.
gasoline market may be “pulling up” the price of crude. “In other words, if U.S. gasoline
markets are tight, they may ‘pull up’ crude oil prices to a degree, given that tight downstream
capacity makes each gallon of product produced that much more valuable, increasing the
value of the crude used to produce the refined product.”15
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Big Oil Wages War on Ethanol - Wired magazine

In case you think big oil is no more or less evil than any other industry, consider this: though its profits for the last three years have been the highest in human history, it currently collects $3.5 billion in taxpayer subsidies for mixing small amounts of ethanol with gas (E10). Those subsidies will double in three years. And yet the industry is doing everything it can–covert and overt–to kill off ethanol. "Business Week’s" David Kiley explores how it is funding academic studies that bash ethanol for driving up the price of corn and other foods. Failing that, oil companies refuse to support E85 gas pumps at stations. Oddly, automakers are usually the handmaidens for Big Oil’s wishes. Yet the Big Three have pledged that one-half of all vehicle sales should be flex-fuel by 2012. "Big Oil is at the top of the list for blocking ethanol acceptance by consumers and the marketplace," according to Loren Beard, senior manager for energy planning at Chrysler.
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http://www.wired.com/autopia/2007/09/big-oil-wages-w/



The price of oil and farm commodities like corn, wheat, hogs etc has more to do with what the speculators are betting on than anything else.



http://brownfieldagnews.com/2013/04/01/ethanol-gaining-profitability/

Ethanol gaining profitability
April 1, 2013 By Bob Meyer Leave a Comment

Last week’s stocks and planting intentions reports from USDA pushed corn prices down on the Chicago Board of Trade and that could be a real shot-in-the-arm for ethanol. Bloomberg reports the cheaper corn widened the price gap between ethanol and gasoline to 72.69 cents per gallon in New York on Monday morning.

The price for May-delivered denatured alcohol dropped 6.4 cents to $2.369 on the Chicago Board of Trade. The April contract which expires Wednesday fell 4 cents to $2.411 a gallon.

The increased profitability of ethanol should prompt companies to restart at least some of the more-than-20 ethanol plants that have been idled around the country. On March 22nd, Valero announced they were going to restart their Linden, Indiana plant.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Hogwash. HooptieWagon Sep 2013 #1
The wording of the article is misleading, I agree. NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #4
they improved combustion of ethanol by increazing spark advance which higher octane ethanol or Bill USA Sep 2013 #7
The stoichiometric ratios for gas and alcohol are vastly different. HooptieWagon Sep 2013 #12
You are, sadly, misinformed. EPA uses the Heating Value of ethanol compared to gasoline's HV Bill USA Sep 2013 #14
I got over 40 years experience working on engines. HooptieWagon Sep 2013 #20
I never said one could optimize engines to runon ethanol & double th fuel efficiency of current FFVs Bill USA Sep 2013 #21
three MIT scientists designed a DI turbocharged engine with ethanol (DI) that gets 25-30% better mpg Bill USA Sep 2013 #22
CORRECTION: Ethanol's Fuel Efficiency (per EPA) is DOUBLED by the Ethanol DI turbocharged engine Bill USA Sep 2013 #24
Ethanol's portion of the increase in price of food 9.8% - 15.7%, Energy's portion: 35% - CBO Bill USA Sep 2013 #25
read the article. your comment doesn't apply towhat they did in their study. Bill USA Sep 2013 #5
Essentially, for your truck, you're correct. House of Roberts Sep 2013 #6
see comment 22 Bill USA Sep 2013 #23
More horsepower better mileage very cool. RGinNJ Sep 2013 #2
Be that as it may, Ethanol's Energy Content is 33 percent lower than Gasoline. NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #3
thats not the whole picture. octane rating is important cause you burning the fuel under compression Bill USA Sep 2013 #8
Yes. Neither is burned with 100% efficiency. Any improvement in either is great! NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #9
it's okay to be skeptical. Here is a link to a report on research by Michael Wang, U.S. Argonne Bill USA Sep 2013 #19
You can easily adjust spark advance, but not compression ratio. So, you won't get optimal results leveymg Sep 2013 #27
it's done by having computer control a turbo-charger. Fuel is monitored for alcohol content which Bill USA Sep 2013 #28
Of course, with the same variable boost you can achieve higher MPG running gasoline than alky leveymg Sep 2013 #30
a higher octane, higher latent heat fuel (ethanol, methanol) will always enable higher boosts than a Bill USA Sep 2013 #33
As a practical matter, gas engines rarely run more than 15 pounds boost (1.0 bar) on the street leveymg Sep 2013 #34
I object... PamW Sep 2013 #69
and I object to people misquoting or misrepresenting what i said. Bill USA Sep 2013 #70
What tune are you singing... PamW Sep 2013 #71
your personal attack on me does not make up for your lack of an argument. You are claiming that I Bill USA Sep 2013 #72
I have no problem with the paper PamW Sep 2013 #79
your personal brand of logic seems to allow you to assert "A" and "not A" simultaneously. Bill USA Sep 2013 #95
We have a 2014 ford focus madokie Sep 2013 #10
the article refers to a study (link provided) that involved altering the ignition timing of the cars Bill USA Sep 2013 #15
With E85 our miles per gallon went down madokie Sep 2013 #16
the study referred to in the article in OP points out that current FFVs CAN DO MUCH BETTER- IF THE Bill USA Sep 2013 #18
Correct me if I'm wrong but... wercal Sep 2013 #29
this won't happen but what should be done is add methanol to the ethanol for blending with gas. In Bill USA Sep 2013 #35
Why not skipnthe methanol wercal Sep 2013 #38
the cost of buiding the infrastructure to distribute it would be enormous. The cars are not cheap. Bill USA Sep 2013 #39
Natural Gas has been used in souther Europe for decades wercal Sep 2013 #40
how much pressure is the gas under in your brother's car? see link Bill USA Sep 2013 #43
cost of CNG fueling station $10,000 to $2 million. Which do you think is the commercial application? Bill USA Sep 2013 #45
I work in construction. 2 million doesn"t scare me at all. wercal Sep 2013 #46
I expect you'll be buying the NG Civic for an additional $10,000?? be my guest. Bill USA Sep 2013 #48
No but I'm in the market for.an aftermarket kit for alot less. wercal Sep 2013 #50
nothin to worry about there..... Bill USA Sep 2013 #61
You do understand that NG is considered wercal Sep 2013 #63
I am not questioning NG. I am commenting on using aftermarket add-on kits. Bill USA Sep 2013 #74
like $6,500 and if you want a compressor at home .. that will cost $3,500 Bill USA Sep 2013 #66
in Brazil 16 million. Bill USA Sep 2013 #51
Ethanol is heavily subsidized in Brazil. wercal Sep 2013 #52
documentation?? of course, you asked how many cars on ethanol, right? Bill USA Sep 2013 #54
http://scarcewhales.blogspot.com/2009/10/petropolis-and-brazilian-ethanol.html?m=1 wercal Sep 2013 #56
the Real cost of oil/gasoline: Over $5.28 a gallon National DEfense Council study Bill USA Sep 2013 #58
Consumer care about any of that is less than zero wercal Sep 2013 #62
almost all the of ethanol consumed @ a 10% blend used by all drivers in U.S. in 2012 13.2 billion Bill USA Sep 2013 #65
the reason we don't have more E85 pumps is that Oil industry has been fighting it like crazy Bill USA Sep 2013 #75
cost of Brazil's ethanol subsidy is TRIVIAL compared to STAGGERING costs of Global Warming Bill USA Sep 2013 #64
note I did NOT say NG was not viable. Just that converting it to methanol would be a better way to Bill USA Sep 2013 #73
Doesns't matter if it doesn't scare you. You have to have a credible business plan toconvince a bank Bill USA Sep 2013 #94
Gas(avg all grades): $3.63. Ethanol retail (avg): $2.95.. corn down 30% ovr 1 yr (see links) Bill USA Sep 2013 #47
Most consumers are smart enough to know that ethanol still costs more wercal Sep 2013 #49
Ethanol price 20% less than gasoline. E85 actually gets about 20% less mpg than gas powered car as Bill USA Sep 2013 #53
Consumer Reports found it to be a 29% deficit wercal Sep 2013 #57
even so (no links again) given the real price of gas is $4.60 - $5.60 ethanol is far cheaper. Bill USA Sep 2013 #59
Honda sells two FFVs in BRazil only, that achieve comparable power, torque and mpg as gasoline cars. Bill USA Sep 2013 #60
the 'joke' is it does not have to be this way. see OP Bill USA Sep 2013 #100
You are correct madokie Sep 2013 #67
Ethanol brings down the price of gas ~20% - Merrill Lynch - more than makes up for E85 price LOL Bill USA Sep 2013 #76
(Another) Economist (not ML) says RFS saves drivers up to $1.50 per gallon - Biofuels Digest Bill USA Sep 2013 #86
what do they pay for gas (unsubsidized) in Europe? Bill USA Sep 2013 #55
some more info on methanol which should be added to ethanol to be blended with gasoline. Bill USA Sep 2013 #36
This weekend I got 55mpg on our city blend postulater Sep 2013 #11
What blend of ethanol? E10? E15? E85? NickB79 Sep 2013 #13
I included a link (in OP) to report on the study. You have to look there 4 the details. E85 mostly Bill USA Sep 2013 #17
You have hit on one of the big drawbacks of ethanol wercal Sep 2013 #31
the reason there are so few stations with pumps for E85 is the Oil Industry has lobbied to keep Bill USA Sep 2013 #32
I'd like to see an example of the oil lobby wercal Sep 2013 #37
If you were working at EPA or Dept of Energy you would be falling over Oil industry lobbyists all Bill USA Sep 2013 #41
oil industry one of the biggest players in lobbying Government Bill USA Sep 2013 #42
So is the corn lobby wercal Sep 2013 #44
go to link to see very good articles in BusinessWeek, Consumer Federation of AMerica, & others that Bill USA Sep 2013 #77
Lets break down exactly what you are saying wercal Sep 2013 #80
obtuse arguments ignoring realities of starting a new product or integrated product delivery system Bill USA Sep 2013 #81
Microsoft doesm't own the computers wercal Sep 2013 #89
the operating system on all IBM PCs is written by Microsoft. Actually, Microsoft DOES OWN computers Bill USA Sep 2013 #90
You really have no idea do you? wercal Sep 2013 #91
pretending you can't read my comment (90) are you?? to quote myself: Bill USA Sep 2013 #92
don't wander off the point. in cmnt 81 I addressed your errors thus: Bill USA Sep 2013 #93
the question is not whether microsoft OWNs but did they write the operating systems use on IBM PCs Bill USA Sep 2013 #98
regarding muscling independent retailers to not make E85 available is restraint of trade violation Bill USA Sep 2013 #82
Independent fuel retailer attributes success to ethanol blends Bill USA Sep 2013 #83
Shocking - A 'good news ethanol story from Iowa wercal Sep 2013 #88
NG vehicles Methane Emissions raises their CO2e emissions to >2x diesels - PennState Bill USA Sep 2013 #99
I am merely repeating the reports published in Wall Street Journal, and by Bill USA Sep 2013 #84
Water used to make one gallon of Ethanol: 2.7 gal; to make a gallon of gasoline: 97 gallons Bill USA Sep 2013 #85
Its not a matter of how much water is used... wercal Sep 2013 #87
Note that I am advocating adding methanol to ethanol, precisely because we need more fuel Bill USA Sep 2013 #96
oil refineries in IOWA - and proposed Hyperion Tar Sands refinery Bill USA Sep 2013 #97
yeah, I just can't forget the secret Energy Task Force meetings CHeney had with all those...FARMERS! Bill USA Sep 2013 #78
Good news, but (maybe) automakers wont do it because of emission standards? DJ13 Sep 2013 #26
So what is the alternative to ethanol blended gasoline? 4dsc Sep 2013 #68
In the near term newblewtoo Sep 2013 #101
NG vehicles Methane Emissions raises their CO2e emissions to >2x diesels - PennState Bill USA Sep 2013 #102
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